Ardima
New member
Timotheus,
Though I believe your proof texts to be a great, solid argument against eternal conscious torment, I find that your theology is lacking on the subjects of life, death, and judgment. Not only that, but I feel that you may have forgotten about the etymology of a very important word within the proof texts that have wrogly been given to prove eternal conscious torment. We must not forget that when we develop a doctrine from biblical texts we must also consider the Bible as a whole in order to derive the correct context of any singular text within.
Let us first look at the Bible in its completeness. I believe that we can correctly conclude that the Bible's overview can be broken down into these parts: the start of the universe (time), the "fall" of mankind, the promise of the coming Messiah for mankind, the redemptive work of Christ for mankind, the judgment of God on mankind, and the end of the universe (time).
It is important to see that the whole of the Bible deals not with individual lives, but the whole of mankind. That is not to say that texts within the whole do not deal with individuals, but again, as a whole it deals with all of mankind.
I believe the biggest problem we face with any doctrine is that we try too often to personalize them. I am not saying that it is a bad thing per se, but we have to realize that they must also be in complete context with the whole. God works this way throughout all of the Bible. He works on a personal level with an individual or small group in order to bring about his will for the whole. A good example of what I mean is in Genesis when God is dealing with the life of Abraham. In short, God says that He is going to use Abraham, an individual, to bless all nations. He works with an individual to bring a desired result to the rest of mankind. And this can be seen consistently throughout the whole of the Bible. Paul knew this and had to remind the Church in Rome, as well as Timothy, and those in Corinth.
When we forget the whole picture of the Bible and personalize individual doctrines; we place ourselves on the edge of a cliff, and the one that most people love to personalize is Soteriology, the doctrine of salvation. Paul, and Luke make it clear that what Jesus did covers all of mankind. (Acts 3:21; Romans 5:18; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:18,19) Romans 5:18 is very important because in the midst of explaining salvation on a more personal level among groups and individuals, he reminds the Church at Rome to remember that what he is saying fits within the scope of the entirety of salvation.
Is it not interesting that Paul clearly states that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death? And yet, if you read the last chapter of the book of Revelation you will find that all of those that are to be cast into the "lake of fire and brimstone" (in the presence of Jesus Christ mind you) are then found without the city of New Jerusalem. Let me point out that this is after the last enemy (death) has been destroyed. Life has been given to all of mankind (death has been destroyed); however not all of mankind has access to the city of New Jerusalem. only those who are found in the Lambs book of life can enter the city and have access to the tree of life. So if those that are without the city (having been labeled all of the horrible things that God detests) have life, we can conclude that the "lake of fire and brimstone" is just as the ancient Greek culture dictated, a place of divine purification (the Glory of God). What is destroyed is the sinful nature of men, however since those outside the city are not "over-comers" they cannot escape the labels that have been placed on them by their sin. It is much like Rehab in Jericho. Thou she was a great help to the spies of Israel and she was given the privilege of being in the lineage of Christ, she could not escape the label that her sin had placed upon her. She would ever be known as Rehab the harlot... Though the sinful nature within those outside of New Jerusalem will be destroyed, the label that their sin will place upon them will prevent them from entering the city where God will dwell. Paul also alludes to this when he writes to Timothy. (1 Timothy 4:10) for to this we also labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers.
As far as eternal punishment and eternal life are concerned, we need to go back to the original meaning of the original words in Hebrew and Greek that are translated as "eternal or everlasting." Etymology is extremely important because words often change in meaning over time. The original meaning of the Hebrew word (‛ôlâm) is properly "time out of mind" That is, time we have not experienced (past, or future) This is talking about time before we were born, and time after our physical death. The meaning is not one directional, so there must be context telling us in which direction this word is referring. The only word that the Hebrew language has that truly means "eternal" is Jehovah, but is not directly translated in English versions out of respect for the name of God (and Jewish customs).
In Greek the words translated as eternal or everlasting are "aion" and "aionios" the latter being the adjective form of the former. "Aion" literally means "an age" which can be defined as "a span of time known only to God." "Aionios," being the adjective form of "aion" cannot have more force than its root, and therefore can only be properly translated as age-abiding or age-during. So if you have a text translated as "aionios life" it should properly be "age-abiding life," or "life of the ages" if you will. The same goes for judgment. If it is "aionios judgment" it should properly be "age-abiding judgment," or "judgment of the ages" if you will. And we find this to be the most accurate translation because if you will once again look at the Bible as a whole, you will see that judgment has never been a final condition, it is only dealt in order to correct something that is wrong. This is always the case throughout the whole of the Bible, and we know that God doesn't change.
If we understand the complete meaning of "Eternal" (that is no beginning and no end) we can see that we could never gain "eternal" life because our lives had a beginning and will have an end. The only thing we can gain is life of the ages, and abundantly at that...
Though I believe your proof texts to be a great, solid argument against eternal conscious torment, I find that your theology is lacking on the subjects of life, death, and judgment. Not only that, but I feel that you may have forgotten about the etymology of a very important word within the proof texts that have wrogly been given to prove eternal conscious torment. We must not forget that when we develop a doctrine from biblical texts we must also consider the Bible as a whole in order to derive the correct context of any singular text within.
Let us first look at the Bible in its completeness. I believe that we can correctly conclude that the Bible's overview can be broken down into these parts: the start of the universe (time), the "fall" of mankind, the promise of the coming Messiah for mankind, the redemptive work of Christ for mankind, the judgment of God on mankind, and the end of the universe (time).
It is important to see that the whole of the Bible deals not with individual lives, but the whole of mankind. That is not to say that texts within the whole do not deal with individuals, but again, as a whole it deals with all of mankind.
I believe the biggest problem we face with any doctrine is that we try too often to personalize them. I am not saying that it is a bad thing per se, but we have to realize that they must also be in complete context with the whole. God works this way throughout all of the Bible. He works on a personal level with an individual or small group in order to bring about his will for the whole. A good example of what I mean is in Genesis when God is dealing with the life of Abraham. In short, God says that He is going to use Abraham, an individual, to bless all nations. He works with an individual to bring a desired result to the rest of mankind. And this can be seen consistently throughout the whole of the Bible. Paul knew this and had to remind the Church in Rome, as well as Timothy, and those in Corinth.
When we forget the whole picture of the Bible and personalize individual doctrines; we place ourselves on the edge of a cliff, and the one that most people love to personalize is Soteriology, the doctrine of salvation. Paul, and Luke make it clear that what Jesus did covers all of mankind. (Acts 3:21; Romans 5:18; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:18,19) Romans 5:18 is very important because in the midst of explaining salvation on a more personal level among groups and individuals, he reminds the Church at Rome to remember that what he is saying fits within the scope of the entirety of salvation.
Is it not interesting that Paul clearly states that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death? And yet, if you read the last chapter of the book of Revelation you will find that all of those that are to be cast into the "lake of fire and brimstone" (in the presence of Jesus Christ mind you) are then found without the city of New Jerusalem. Let me point out that this is after the last enemy (death) has been destroyed. Life has been given to all of mankind (death has been destroyed); however not all of mankind has access to the city of New Jerusalem. only those who are found in the Lambs book of life can enter the city and have access to the tree of life. So if those that are without the city (having been labeled all of the horrible things that God detests) have life, we can conclude that the "lake of fire and brimstone" is just as the ancient Greek culture dictated, a place of divine purification (the Glory of God). What is destroyed is the sinful nature of men, however since those outside the city are not "over-comers" they cannot escape the labels that have been placed on them by their sin. It is much like Rehab in Jericho. Thou she was a great help to the spies of Israel and she was given the privilege of being in the lineage of Christ, she could not escape the label that her sin had placed upon her. She would ever be known as Rehab the harlot... Though the sinful nature within those outside of New Jerusalem will be destroyed, the label that their sin will place upon them will prevent them from entering the city where God will dwell. Paul also alludes to this when he writes to Timothy. (1 Timothy 4:10) for to this we also labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers.
As far as eternal punishment and eternal life are concerned, we need to go back to the original meaning of the original words in Hebrew and Greek that are translated as "eternal or everlasting." Etymology is extremely important because words often change in meaning over time. The original meaning of the Hebrew word (‛ôlâm) is properly "time out of mind" That is, time we have not experienced (past, or future) This is talking about time before we were born, and time after our physical death. The meaning is not one directional, so there must be context telling us in which direction this word is referring. The only word that the Hebrew language has that truly means "eternal" is Jehovah, but is not directly translated in English versions out of respect for the name of God (and Jewish customs).
In Greek the words translated as eternal or everlasting are "aion" and "aionios" the latter being the adjective form of the former. "Aion" literally means "an age" which can be defined as "a span of time known only to God." "Aionios," being the adjective form of "aion" cannot have more force than its root, and therefore can only be properly translated as age-abiding or age-during. So if you have a text translated as "aionios life" it should properly be "age-abiding life," or "life of the ages" if you will. The same goes for judgment. If it is "aionios judgment" it should properly be "age-abiding judgment," or "judgment of the ages" if you will. And we find this to be the most accurate translation because if you will once again look at the Bible as a whole, you will see that judgment has never been a final condition, it is only dealt in order to correct something that is wrong. This is always the case throughout the whole of the Bible, and we know that God doesn't change.
If we understand the complete meaning of "Eternal" (that is no beginning and no end) we can see that we could never gain "eternal" life because our lives had a beginning and will have an end. The only thing we can gain is life of the ages, and abundantly at that...
