Is death just another life?

JudgeRightly

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Thanks. Does @Clete agree with you?

Probably.


* In The Day That You Eat Of It: Jesus said, "I say unto you", over a hundred times. Christ's words are in the place of the Old Testament's four hundred plus, "Thus saith the Lord". For He is God. So with authority the Lord said, "Most assuredly, I say unto you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death" (John 8:51). Of course Jesus did not mean that His disciples would never die physically. Rather, of course, He meant their spiritual rebirth could be eternal in that they would never again die spiritually. Likewise, when He said to Adam of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, "you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Gen. 2:17). That did not mean that they would die physically the very day they ate, but that they would die spiritually. Death is not obliteration but separation. In physical death a man's spirit separates from his body. In spiritual death his spirit is separated from God. The Hebrew word for day of course can mean a long period of time. Some day-agers though, eager for more evidence for that obvious truth, will claim that the death Adam was warned about was only physical death. Then, because he didn't die until he was 930 years old, their claim is, "See, here too, the 'day you eat of it', even that day is a long period of time!" Sadly though, that unnecessary and incorrect argument undermines the reality and immediacy of spiritual death. The separation of our spirit from God of course is as real as the separation of our spirit from our body at physical death. In fact, for the believer, our body acts as a kind of anchor to keep our soul on Earth. So, not when our heart stops, because that's merely a pump (that could even be replaced in a transplant, and of course the patient still retains their personal identify), but when someone actually dies, a rather dramatic thing happens. With the separation that is physical death, untethering a man's soul and spirit from his body, for the believer, his spirit, which is free, now soars into the heavenlies to forever be with the Lord. Tragically though, for the unbeliever, the great weight of his guilt, no longer tethered to his physical body, now causes his darkened spirit to plummet into hell. Selah.



Until then, you have to get past this:

* List of Indicators of 24-Hour Creation Days; The above (like the Gap Theory observations below) is a list of the consequences that result from rejecting normal-length days of creation. A direct way of showing that these Genesis Days equaled 24 hours include observing that:
- On Day Four the sun and moon were to rule over the day and night, virtually mandating literal days 4, 5, and 6
- The Day Three plants needed the Sun of Day Four to survive therefore Day 3 could be hours but not years long
- Each of the six Days have ordinals 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc., which are typically used with literal and not figurative days
- Each of the six Days have evening and morning descriptions typically used with literal and not figurative days
- The 7th Day sabbath model is that God made the heavens, earth, and seas and everything in them in six days
- The purpose of Genesis carefully listing the ages of the patriarchs was for calculating the years since creation
- Jesus said that God created Man at the beginning of, that is, not not long after, creation (Mk. 10:6; etc.)
- Lucifer in the Garden of Eden hadn't yet fallen, no suffering or thorns yet till after "everthing was very good" on Day Six

So it turns out that making a small adjustment in Genesis 1 and overlooking that "the evening and the morning" were the first day, the second day, etc., leads to extensive rejection of other plain historical passages of Scripture. Soon enough such compromise leads also to rejection of the Bible's teaching on gender and God making us male and female (Gen. 1), on sexual morality (Gen. 1, 9, Ex. 20, etc.), on marriage between a man and a woman (Gen. 2), and even the killing of the innocent (Gen. 4, 9, Ex. 20, etc.) through suicide, euthanasia, and abortion. What then, arises, with the adoption of the Gap Theory? Bob and Fred investigate (see below).[/B]

 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Saying is doesn't make it so.
Clever, but over used.

You can't prove that man is spiritually dead. In fact, if that was true, the Calvinists would be right.

So, I stand by what I said. Man is condemned to death when he sins....not literally spiritually dead.
 

Clete

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Hog wash. I believe much like Derf on this subject and I reject all of your assertions that I bolded. Only someone as woodenly literal as you would possibly say those things. And it is not something that Derf has ever claimed to believe. In fact, I've never run across anyone that believes that set of fallacies in more than 20 years of actively participating in theology forums.
It doesn't matter whether you reject them or not. That isn't the point. Those things are RATIONAL CONSEQUENCES. In other words, those things follow logically from the premise that a day isn't a day. You can reject them if you like but then you'll have to stop claiming to have anything that resembles a rationally coherent theology.

Perhaps you don't care about whether you doctrine is coherent, most Christians don't but burying your head in the sand doesn't make the Sun go away.

Clete
 

Clete

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Clever, but over used.

You can't prove that man is spiritually dead. In fact, if that was true, the Calvinists would be right.

So, I stand by what I said. Man is condemned to death when he sins....not literally spiritually dead.
Saying it doesn't make it so, glorydaz!

Neither does ignoring counter arguments and repeating your position as though it hasn't been refuted!

First of all, I've never said that man is spiritually dead from birth, which is what the Calvinists teach. And I've also never said that being spiritually dead comes with the consequences that the Calvinists teach either (i.e. total inability to respond to God, just to give one example). There is basically nothing that is distinctively Calvinist that is correct.

Having said that Paul explicitly states that when the law came, sin revived and he DIED. He also talks about how we were "dead in our trespasses and in the uncircumcision of our sinful nature" before we believed.

So I've got God's easy to understand word and you've got three sentence, totally unsubstantial posts that display little more than your near complete ignorance of the topic being discussed and a total lack of any desire or ability to actually debate the issue.

Clete
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
It doesn't matter whether you reject them or not. That isn't the point. Those things are RATIONAL CONSEQUENCES. In other words, those things follow logically from the premise that a day isn't a day. You can reject them if you like but then you'll have to stop claiming to have anything that resembles a rationally coherent theology.

Perhaps you don't care about whether you doctrine is coherent, most Christians don't but burying your head in the sand doesn't make the Sun go away.

Clete
First of all nobody denies that a day is a day. What is being said to you is there is there is figurative language in the Bible and some of it uses the word day. But, if you admit that your argument is completely destroyed. That is anything but honest, rational or logical.
 

Clete

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First of all nobody denies that a day is a day. What is being said to you is there is there is figurative language in the Bible and some of it uses the word day. But, if you admit that your argument is completely destroyed. That is anything but honest, rational or logical.
You're a liar!

Good bye!
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
You're a liar!

Good bye!
Yeah. Your usual response when you're nailed down. When you have to put up or admit you're wrong you'll do anything but admit a need to change your mind.

Over the last 40 years of Bible study I have changed my mind on some very foundational beliefs of Christianity when I saw the evidence in scripture. The largest change? The nature of Christ. That is an earth shaking foundational change to make for it affects almost every part of a person's beliefs.

Nobody has everything correct, including you, but I have never seen you admit even once that you might possibly be wrong about anything no matter how much speculation you practice.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Saying it doesn't make it so, glorydaz!

When it's supported by Scripture, it certainly does.
Neither does ignoring counter arguments and repeating your position as though it hasn't been refuted!

No decent counter arguments have been given.
First of all, I've never said that man is spiritually dead from birth, which is what the Calvinists teach. And I've also never said that being spiritually dead comes with the consequences that the Calvinists teach either (i.e. total inability to respond to God, just to give one example). There is basically nothing that is distinctively Calvinist that is correct.

Ah, well that's a start, and it's very important to this discussion.
Having said that Paul explicitly states that when the law came, sin revived and he DIED. He also talks about how we were "dead in our trespasses and in the uncircumcision of our sinful nature" before we believed.

So I've got God's easy to understand word and you've got three sentence, totally unsubstantial posts that display little more than your near complete ignorance of the topic being discussed and a total lack of any desire or ability to actually debate the issue.

Clete
You haven't figured out what Paul is saying in Romans 6-8. That's clear.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth .fruit unto death

Notice how there is nothing there about our being spiritually dead. What we do see is "fruit unto death". You see the "wages" of sin. That is something we earn and why we're captives that need to be set free. We're under a death sentence.

Romans 6:21-23
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Instead of being "DEAD spiritually", what we lack is not the will but how to perform that which is good. That's why we can hear the preaching of the Gospel and respond to it.

Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
So you agree that “in the day” can mean something greater than 24 hours?
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member

Terminal Lucidity leave Materialists Scratching Their Head​



interesting phenomenon of Terminal Lucidity. As Wiki describes, it’s “an unexpected return of mental clarity and memory, or suddenly regained consciousness that occurs in the time shortly before death”. It’s a condition that has been reported by physicians since the 19th century. The importance of this subject stems from the nature of consciousness. The mathematician Descarte described it as mind/matter dualism, or Cartesian Dualism, which states that the mind can exist outside of the body, and the body cannot think.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
So you agree that “in the day” can mean something greater than 24 hours?
First of all nobody denies that a day is a day. What is being said to you is there is there is figurative language in the Bible and some of it uses the word day. But, if you admit that your argument is completely destroyed. That is anything but honest, rational or logical.

“in the day” can mean something greater than 24 hours

but not here

Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

eating only took minutes , so that is a 24 hour day
 
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Gary K

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Banned
“in the day” can mean something greater than 24 hours

but not here

Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

eating only took minutes , so that 24 hour day
Baloney. Even Bible translators say a "day" can be figurative.

From Strong's concordance:

117יום
yôm yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day(as the warm {hours}) whether literally (from sunrise to {sunset} or from one sunset to the {next}) or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated {term}) (often used adverbially): - {age} + {always} + {chronicles} continually ({-ance}) {daily} ({[birth-]} {each} to) {day} (now {a} two) days ({agone}) + {elder} X {end} + {evening} + (for) ever ({-lasting} {-more}) X {full} {life} as (so) long as (. . . {live}) (even) {now} + {old} + {outlived} + {perpetually} {presently} + {remaineth} X {required} {season} X {since} {space} {then} (process of) {time} + as at other {times} + in {trouble} {weather} (as) {when} ({a} {the} within a) while ({that}) X whole (+ {age}) (full) year ({-ly}) + younger.

Plus, the footnote changes the wording to accommodate a Hebraicism: thou shalt surely…: Heb. dying thou shalt die
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Under condemnation, not dead. In the same way that "sin came alive".
no
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

there is
physical death
death as a person
death is a place
and spiritual death
You see here no more "condemnation".

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
you have to be spiritually alive to walk in the spirit

Joh_4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
1Co_2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

I'll ask you this. Why do we preach the Gospel message, and expect spiritually dead people to respond so they can be given the Holy Spirit to begin with? It's because they aren't spiritually dead. They're just under condemnation of death.
they are spiritually dead and they have a spirit that can still respond to the Holy Spirit

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

2Co_3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
 
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way 2 go

Well-known member
Baloney. Even Bible translators say a "day" can be figurative.
prove it is here

Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

eating only took minutes , so that is a 24 hour day
 
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