Has the Church Replaced Israel ?

JudgeRightly

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Interpretations of scripture often don't agree.

The problem is that I'm not interpreting scripture. You are.

I'm simply letting scripture say exactly what it says.

It is the fruit of the interpretation that illuminates its source.

Meaningless platitude.

Yet He healed the woman.
Just as He heals Gentiles today.

Your ignorance of scripture is showing. ("fruit of interpretation" much?) It wasn't the woman who needed healing. It was her daughter who was "severely demon-possessed."

And guess what, He didn't even want to interact with the woman, let alone heal her daughter.

First, He completely ignored her cries.

Then He told His disciples, who asked that He send her away, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He didn't even want to talk to her, because His mission was ONLY to the Jews.

Even when she began to worship Him, He basically insulted her by calling her a dog, saying "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." Dog, being a derogatory term for Gentiles, and the children being Israel, the bread being His message.

It was ONLY AFTER she showed her faith in verse 27 that Jesus finally gave in and healed her daughter.

Saying "Yet He healed the woman['s daughter]" doesn't give the full picture, and glosses over the fact that Jesus wanted nothing to do with the Gentiles, because His mission was to gather His children as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. (Matthew 23:37)

He came seeking fruit from Israel for three years, but found none, so He cut off Israel and grafted in the Body of Christ. (Luke 13 6-9; Romans 11:11-32)

I am so glad I got grafted into the Branch known as Jesus when I was baptized into Him and into His death and burial.

Wrong analogy.

Jesus isn't the branch (in this context). He is the Vine, that which the branches grow out of. Unbelieving Israel was cut off from Christ, and the Body of Christ was grafted in.

(Rom 6:3)

Isn't talking about water baptism.

And raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

Which doesn't mean that you're incapable of sinning.

The result is written of in Rom 6:7.

1 Corinthians 10:12-13

Thanks be to God.

Proverbs 16:18
 

JudgeRightly

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At least we have that in common.

We don't.

I love those verses, especially verse 13.
It is God's promise to not allow us to ever be tempted above what we can resist.
He will provide the escape, to His glory.

None of this indicates that Christians cannot sin.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
We don't.



None of this indicates that Christians cannot sin.
You are right.
1 John 3:9 does though.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
So does 1 John 5:18
It is written..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
I thank God for His truths.
May He be praised eternally.
 

JudgeRightly

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You are right.
1 John 3:9 does though.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
So does 1 John 5:18
It is written..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Nope, those verses don't say what you want them to say.

I thank God for His truths.
May He be praised eternally.

What do you call the bad things you do, then?

Or do you claim that you do nothing bad ever?
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Nope, those verses don't say what you want them to say.
Can an apple seed ever bear onions?
Neither can God's seed bear liars or thieves.
What do you call the bad things you do, then?
What "bad" things?
Misadding in my checkbook?
I re-add it.
Spill a drink?
I get the sponge and sop it up.
Go past my exit on the highway?
I go to the next one and circle back.
Or do you claim that you do nothing bad ever?
I do no sin since I repented of sin.
Sin is what I "turned from".
And God made it all happen with His gracious gifts.
 

beloved57

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Has the Church replaced Israel, God forbid, the Church the Body of Christ is Israel to which the Promises are made. No the Church isnt the physical nation which is called Israel, but that remnant Israel according to the election of grace. Remember Two Israels are mentioned in Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: One of these Israels is the then existing Physical nation, and the other is a remnant of that nation according to the election of Grace in Christ.

Paul distinguishes them once again here in Rom 11:1-7


I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew{Remnant Israel]. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel[national] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election[remnant Israel/Church] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded[national Israel].

So the Two Israels are National a physical nation, Spiritual Israel a Chosen remnant according to the Election of Grace, which I contend is the Church Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Hints of scripture helps us more fully understand that Israel not national, but elect remnant Israel that was within the nation are the same. Now Paul says that God had not cast away His People that He foreknew Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

Who he idenfies as the election of grace remnant in Vs 5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel[national] hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election[Israel remnant] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

So remnant Israel sre the ones God foreknew as His People. So they are the other Israel in Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[remnant], which are of Israel[national]:

Now remember Paul earlier in the same letter wrote of the same foreknown in Rom 8:28-29


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This passage is in reference to the Church. His specific dissertation about national israel had not yet begun. So the foreknown of God in both Rom 8:29 and Rom 11:2 are the same people, and we know Paul identified them as Remnant Israel in Rom 11:5-6 the election of grace. So both references are elect remnant israel and the church ! Thats the mystery.

How confusing it would be to the readers of this epistle if Gods foreknown were different people in Rom 8:29 from Rom 11:2 but its not confusing if we understand they are one and the same, which I believe Paul Illustrated beautifully in Rom 11 with the Olive Tree discourse Rom 11:16-26
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Now the remnant Israel elect Paul said God has not cast them away, the foreknown Rom 11:2, the reason why is because, since they are the same ones of Rom 8:29, they had been predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So thats why God had not and will not cast away His People whom He foreknew Rom 11:1-2


I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Now elect Israel the remnant has transitioned from its OT Idenity with OT National Israel and has been confirmed under the NT Covenant made to Israel Jer 31, confirmed in and by Christ the establisher of the NT Covenant Heb 8:13

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. This has been how the Israel Kingdom has been restored, through the Blood of Christ Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And gentiles are partakers 1 Cor 11:25

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Corinth was a gentile church !
 

beloved57

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We know that the Church with the addition of the gentiles called, is Israel because God Identifies the call of the Gentiles as Israel Acts 15:16-17

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Notice " and all the Gentiles" upon whom my name is called". This could be rendered:

Upon whom my name is called - Who are called by my name, or who are regarded as my people.

Now who or what People are regarded as Gods People ? Ps 81:8


Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee: O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me;

Isa 1:3


The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

Jer 7:12

But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.

Jer 23:12


And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

Who was the Prophet referring to hear as Gods People

2 Chron 7:14


If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Is not this a reference to Israel ? And so Israel and the Name of God are synonymous.

Jesus who is God is refered to as Israel in this prophecy Isa 49:3

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

So the calling of the gentiles as Gods People Rom 9:25



As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Paul writing to the gentile church in Corinth wrote of them as believers 2 Cor 6:16

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So the Gentile Church is part of Israel, Gods chosen People, Called by His Name !
 

beloved57

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We know the Church, the Body of Christ is Israel because, Israel is Identified as the Children of God and so is the Church.

Paul when writing to the Romans in Chapter 9 vs 6-8 He identifies Israel as the children of God, observe

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So one of the Israels in vs six is being Identified as not being the Children of God, meaning the other one is, correct ?

And Paul writing to the same Church Identifies gentile believers as being the Children of God,

Rom 8:16,21

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

referring to the gentiles in Rom 9:26


And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

In Galatians, Paul writing to jew and gentile believers, the Church Gal 3:26


For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Jn 3:10

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The New Covenant made with the House of Israel as Per Jer 31:33

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

This finds its fulfillment in Jesus Christ the Head of His Body the Church Heb 12:4

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as[Jesus] Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

The Head of the Church is the Mediator of the New Covenant, so the New Covenant Promises to Israel are fulfilled to the Church which He is the Head and Mediator of !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God will take away the sins of Israel !

Rom 11:26-27

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This Promise to Gods chosen People Israel has been fulfilled by the Mediator of the New Covenant, and the Head of the Body His Church. When Jesus came to earth and died for the sins of His People, both jew and gentile chosen people in Christ, He took away their sins

1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Jesus death is the fulfillment of Rom 11:27 in taking away the sins of Israel. Are we to look again for some future time when God shal take away the sins of Israel ? It wasnt enough when Christ came and took away sins this first time ? Does Christ need to die again to take away the sins of ethnic israel only ? What covenant would that be ? Because 1 Jn 3:5 is according to the New Covenant, confirmed by Christs death Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now didnt His Blood do what the OT sacrifices under the couldnt do which was take away sin ? Heb 10:4,11


For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

The Israel that the New Covenant has taken away their sins through Christ, is a Israel made up of all ethnic groups throughout the world Jn 1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The world here in Jn 1:29 is the Israel in Rom 11:27


27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
We know the Church, the Body of Christ is Israel because the Body of Christ is or the Children of God, which also is Israel. Writing to the Romans in Chapter 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

This is both jew and gentile believers with the Spirit in them testifying within them that they are the children of God.

Now in Rom 9 Paul in contrasting two Israels identifies one of them as being the children of God apart from the other 9:6-8


6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Now who cant see that the Children of God in this context refers to one of the Israel's in Vs 6

Then in Jn 11 we have the children of God being identified as Israel, Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

These are the same children of God in Rom 8:16 which is the Church, the Body of Christ, them with the Spirit of God in them Rom 8:14-17

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

And if the Children of God they are also heirs. The same heirs that pertain to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
 

JudgeRightly

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We know the Church, the Body of Christ is Israel

No, "WE" don't, because it's not.

because the Body of Christ is or the Children of God, which also is Israel.

God can have two different groups called "Children of God," without both being Israel, because of the overarching "Household of God" that contains both the nation of Israel and the Body of Christ.

Writing to the Romans in Chapter 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

This is both jew and gentile believers with the Spirit in them testifying within them that they are the children of God.

In the Body of Christ, there is no longer Jew nor Greek. In the New Covenant, the distinction is still made. Things that differ...

Now in Rom 9 Paul in contrasting two Israels identifies one of them as being the children of God apart from the other 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Paul is showing difference between believing Israel, which was not cut off, and unbelieving Israel, which was cut off.

He is NOT talking about the Body of Christ.

Now who cant see that the Children of God in this context refers to one of the Israel's in Vs 6

Then in Jn 11 we have the children of God being identified as Israel, Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Yup, ISRAEL, not the Body of Christ.

These are the same children of God in Rom 8:16

No, they're not.

which is the Church, the Body of Christ, them with the Spirit of God in them Rom 8:14-17

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

There are multiple churches in the Bible. One is Israel, the other is the Body of Christ.

BOTH are part of the overarching Household of God.

And if the Children of God they are also heirs. The same heirs that pertain to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

Heirs of eternal life, but they are not the same group.

Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

This verse doesn't support your claim.

Hebrews was written to [GASP!] the Hebrews!
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

No, The Church has always been Israel, but not Israel after the flesh, or the physical nation of Israel See within the physical nation of Israel was always a remnant according to the election of Grace, which is also Israel. Now under the Old Covenant Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ was mostly comprised of saved jewish Christians. They would usually be persecuted by the non christian jews in the nation Matt 5:12


Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets[Believers in Crist] which were before you.

Lk 13:34



O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Now under the New Covenant, Body of Christ Israel the election of Grace has been multiplied by saving and grafting in multitudes into Spiritual Israel, which is still the Body of Christ ! So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.
When we say "Israel", we must be careful to also say if we are speaking of political Israel or Spiritual Israel.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The New Testament makes it crystal clear that the New Covenant Promises to Covenant Israel in the Old Testament are being fulfilled, not replaced by the New Covenant Church, the Body of Christ on this side of the Cross, which ratified, confirmed the New Covenant, which Christ the Covenant Head of His Body the Church is its Mediator.

Eph 2:11-16

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The One Body here is equivalent to the one commonwealth of Israel in Vs 12


For instance, the word commonwealth politeia in Vs 12 means:


  1. the administration of civil affairs
  2. a state or commonwealth
  3. citizenship, the rights of a citizen
  4. Society

The word body/ sōma in Vs 16 means:

is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body

So the commonwealth of Israel is comprised of both jews and gentiles, thats the revelation of the Mystery,

The Mystery was that Gentiles are Part of the commonwealth of Israel, and so the New Covenant promises to Covenant Israel are fulfilled in the NT Church which includes Gentiles.
 

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
The New Testament makes it crystal clear that the New Covenant Promises to Covenant Israel in the Old Testament are being fulfilled, not replaced by the New Covenant Church, the Body of Christ on this side of the Cross, which ratified, confirmed the New Covenant, which Christ the Covenant Head of His Body the Church is its Mediator.

Eph 2:11-16

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The One Body here is equivalent to the one commonwealth of Israel in Vs 12


For instance, the word commonwealth politeia in Vs 12 means:


  1. the administration of civil affairs
  2. a state or commonwealth
  3. citizenship, the rights of a citizen
  4. Society

The word body/ sōma in Vs 16 means:

is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body

So the commonwealth of Israel is comprised of both jews and gentiles, thats the revelation of the Mystery,

The Mystery was that Gentiles are Part of the commonwealth of Israel, and so the New Covenant promises to Covenant Israel are fulfilled in the NT Church which includes Gentiles.
Pretty good exegetical analysis, I think. In this context perhaps the OP ought to have said something more particularly along the lines of, that the Church replaced Israel and the Gentiles as they're depicted in the Old Testament. Galatians 3:28 is certainly consistent with this thesis. The Dispies are going to fight your claim here, but like I said, pretty good analysis here imo.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Pretty good exegetical analysis, I think. In this context perhaps the OP ought to have said something more particularly along the lines of, that the Church replaced Israel and the Gentiles as they're depicted in the Old Testament. Galatians 3:28 is certainly consistent with this thesis. The Dispies are going to fight your claim here, but like I said, pretty good analysis here imo.
Poor confused one.

The body of Christ did NOT replace Israel. Israel is still Israel and will be restored when Christ returns to establish His kingdom on the earth.
 
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