God's Exhaustive Foreknowledge

[way 2 go]

Quite simply: He does not have either.

quite simply God has exhaustive infallible knowledge of today and tomorrow

Saying it doesn't make it so.

and you saying God does not ... doesn't make it so.

so did God foreknow this or did he make people sin against him ?

(Psalms 22:14-18) [14] I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. [15] My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. [16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. [17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. [18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

 

[Right Divider]

quite simply God has exhaustive infallible knowledge of today and tomorrow

Because you say so?

PROVE IT... make an ARGUMENT.

Repeating your FALSE claims is NOT going to cut it here.

and you saying God does not ... doesn't make it so.

Why? He can't just make an unsupported claim like you?

so did God foreknow this or did he make people sin against him ?

(Psalms 22:14-18) [14] I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. [15] My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. [16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. [17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. [18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Again... YOUR CLAIM that God has EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge of EVERY SINGLE CHOICE OF EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT WILL EVER LIVE WILL MAKE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN.

That is NOT what that passage CAN EVEN remotely claim to prove.

Yes, there are some things that God knows will happen because He has the power to make them come to pass!

 

[way 2 go]

Because you say so?

PROVE IT... make an ARGUMENT.

Repeating your FALSE claims is NOT going to cut it here.

i have this:
(Revelation of John 4:1) After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things

where in revelation do you have God's second coming and judgement as a maybe ?

Why? He can't just make an unsupported claim like you?

open theism is unproven , so prove it.

Again... YOUR CLAIM that God has EXHAUSTIVE foreknowledge of EVERY SINGLE CHOICE OF EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT WILL EVER LIVE WILL MAKE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN.

That is NOT what that passage CAN EVEN remotely claim to prove.

Yes, there are some things that God knows will happen because He has the power to make them come to pass!

accusing God of making people sin to hold on to open theism

so not foreknowledge , God makes people sin ,
how is this better than what you accuse God of if he has exhaustive infallible foreknowledge (◔_◔)

(Psalms 22:14-18) [14] I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. [15] My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. [16] For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. [17] I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. [18] They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.



revelation is about Jesus second coming & it must take place ,not something mankind can stop
so Jeremiah 18 is not relevant to something they could not repent their way out of .

and some did repent
(Revelation of John 7:14) And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

and some
did not repent
Revelation 9:20
Revelation 9:22
Revelation 16:9
Revelation 16:11

what have you got besides denial of the truth ?

(Revelation of John 22:19) And if anyone takes away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.

 

[Right Divider]

i have this:
(Revelation of John 4:1) After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things

where in revelation do you have God's second coming and judgement as a maybe ?

Where does it say that God knows EVERY SINGLE CHOICE that EVERY PERSON WHO EVERY LIVED will make even before they are born?

open theism is unproven , so prove it.

You've not listened to a single word that you've already been given.

accusing God of making people sin to hold on to open theism

Repeating FALSE ACCUSATIONS will not win you any prizes.

Open theists agree with every God given prophesy. But we know FROM SCRIPTURE that not every choice that every person makes is foreknown even before they are born.

It is YOU that makes God out to be a con artist by telling people to make choices that were already settled even before they were born!

God frequently TELLS PEOPLE TO CHOOSE... but you claim that their choices WERE ALREADY MADE (before they even came into existence).

According to YOU, God foreknew that you would come to TOL and make a fool out of yourself.

 

[Idolater]

For the sake of this thread, we'll assume that God has perfect knowledge of everything in the present. Now ... try to prove infallible foreknowledge.

I think this is a constructive addition to the thread RD.

 

[Right Divider]

I think this is a constructive addition to the thread RD.

Thanks... would you care to add something constructive to the thread?

 

[Idolater]

Thanks... would you care to add something constructive to the thread?

I'll try. Below is Way 2 Go's post containing an argument Open Theists use to refute the coexistence of foreknowledge and free will:

T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

Source

This thread is about exhaustive foreknowledge, but if you endorse the above argument, you would reject any foreknowledge at all, as being mutually exclusive with human free will. Do you endorse this argument?

 

[Right Divider]

This thread is about exhaustive foreknowledge, but if you endorse the above argument, you would reject any foreknowledge at all, as being mutually exclusive with human free will.

That logic does NOT preclude some knowledge of the future.

God is able to bring things to pass because He has great power and knowledge.

Are you of the mind that God knows EVERY SINGLE CHOICE that EVERY PERSON WHO EVERY LIVED will make even before they are born?

If so, go ahead and MAKE AN ARGUMENT!

 

[Idolater]

That logic does NOT preclude some knowledge of the future.

If that argument succeeds, then yes it certainly does, it would prove that any foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.

God is able to bring things to pass because He has great power and knowledge.

ofc, no argument.

Are you of the mind that God knows EVERY SINGLE CHOICE that EVERY PERSON WHO EVERY LIVED will make even before they are born?

Yes.

If so, go ahead and MAKE AN ARGUMENT!

The beginning of my argument is to focus on the argument @way 2 go quoted and that some Open Viewers here have endorsed. If that argument fails, then that's the beginning of my argument, so that's why I'm focusing on that for now.

 

[Right Divider]

If that argument succeeds, then yes it certainly does, it would prove that any foreknowledge is incompatible with free will.

You can discuss that argument with @Clete, as he is the one that introduced it in another thread.

Yes.

Then by all means, make an ARGUMENT to support the claim that God knows EVERY SINGLE CHOICE that EVERY PERSON WHO EVERY LIVED will make even before they are born?

The beginning of my argument is to focus on the argument @way 2 go quoted and that some Open Viewers here have endorsed.

Again, take that up with the originator.

If you are unable to make an argument HERE, as is the case with W2G, then just say so.

P.S. The argument must be Biblical and must be far more than just pointing out a few prophecies. The CLAIM is 100% knowledge of EVERY choice that EVERYONE will ever make (even from BEFORE their existence). That claim cannot be proven from scripture, because it's just not there.