ECT Gifts of the Spirit

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Anyone know why Paul's second list of the gifts excludes some included in the first?

The different gift lists overlap or include unique ones, but this is not a big issue. Likewise, some books talk about Father, Son, Holy Spirit in different ways. This does not mean God is not triune because the Spirit or Son is not mentioned in every verse. Eph. 4 talks about leadership gifts. I Cor. 12 emphasizes manifestation/ministry gifts, while Romans has some of both, etc. All gifts are valid or none are. One cannot exegetically pick and choose to support arbitrary disp views.

gandp: what is your view on tongues for today or not?

I would not mess with seyd...he is 6' 4" and mean. He walked through harsh elements to meet me last night. I was hoping he would buy me a coffee, but....
Jacob, we picked up a patient today who said he was a priest. I thought he was Catholic (it was a Ukrainian seniors place). It turns out he was Pentecostal, but now Mormon (so he is Melchiz. priest). He converted a few years ago. His wife left him due to his medical problems. I wondered why he would convert....I found out he had a brain injury...not sure if that is relevant? Could we arrange a trade? We will give you johnw and butterfly and you and this patient can come over to us Evangelicals? Neither church will ever be the same.
 

Gurucam

Well-known member
Rightly divide the word of truth, understanding the difference between the prophetic program, and the mystery program, . . . . . . .

Can Truth be different from Jesus' prophesies? Also can Truth be different from the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven? Can prophesy and mystery be 'rightly divided'?

Can they divide into Truth and not Truths?

Just a question. If they can be rightly divided, then how so, the answer of which must be defensible.
 

Gurucam

Well-known member
I understand that, but Paul also said:

1 Corinthians 14:1 "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."

All gifts should be intensely desired for. And quite frankly, any gift from the Holy Spirit is the "best" gift in my opinion.

You said 'any gift from the Holy Spirit is the "best" gift in my opinion'. Fact is all gift are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

However not everyone is privy to their gift of the Spirit. In fact only a few are privy to their gift of the Spirit. Only the 'born again' can be aware of their specific gifts of the Spirit. The 'born again' describers those who are awakened to their own heart or spirit. Only they will know what is in their heart or spirit. And our Gifts of the Spirit are discerned only within our heart and empowered only through our hearts or spirit.

The 'born again' are aware of their gifts through urgings of love which are sustained naturally and spontaneously within their individual hearts or spirit for very specific things. That is, they are aware of their gifts of the Spirit through urgings of love which are sustained naturally and spontaneously within their individual hearts or spirit for very specific ideas, beliefs, interests needs, desires and aspirations in God's creation which includes earth.

This that you do not love unconditionally and unceasingly within your heart cannot be and are not your gifts.

One cannot chose a gift after intellectual concluding what is wise as gift of the Spirit.

One must awaken to one's preexisting gifts of the spirit. As Paul instructed, one must search one's own heart to now precisely what the Spirit has in mind for one and this is what one must pray for and do.

 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
:nono:



If Paul was truly revealing something that had never been known he could not have claimed it was made manifest by the scriptures of the prophets which was for him what we refer to as the Old Testament. Paul was teaching a new covenant but it came from the same God so contained the same mysteries that Old Testament Prophets had taught.

Once again what was really new was that now Gentiles could be part of the covenant community.
__

Nope.
"which was kept secret since the world began"

Again, much of the confusion in "Christianity" stems from failure to rightly divide the word of truth(2 Tim. 2:15), mainly in not distinguishing in the divisions in the Bible, the most important being the 2 following main divisions:


The prophetic program- which is God's purpose to establish a literal, physical, earthly, Davidic, Messianic kingdom("...as the days of heaven upon the earth."-Deuteronomy 11:21), with Jesus Christ as the king of kings, ruling over the twelve apostles, who will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, who will rule over the nations of this earth,

from

The mystery program- which is God's purpose to form a spiritual body of believers called "the Body of Christ", with Christ as the Head. This body will be perfectly "conformed to the image of His Son" and will rule and reign with Christ in the heavenly places("..made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."-Eph. 2:6) This program was revealed to the apostle Paul by the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven via progressive revelation. ____________________________________________________
Notice the prophetic program was

SPOKEN about since the world began-Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21-24

While the mystery program was

Kept SECRET, hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:5,9; Colossians 1:26).

Recognize the differences.


And do not confuse revelation, with understanding.

.

The Holy Bible testifies that the book can be understood; so does God ("....whoso readeth, let him understand" Mt 24:5)-. the Holy Bible is not some "dark, mysterious, spooky, shadowything." The LORD God wrote it so it could be understood-hence REVELATION. Illumination is concerned with understanding that which has been revealed already. And we must not confuse, or equate, "understandable" and "not fully understood", and certainly not with revelation.

Mystery:
"Hid" means "Held in silence"-not revealed previously in the OT-hence, hid in God. If it was held in absolute silence, it could not be referring to the OT. It means absolutely silent-NOT REVEALED. Compare other usages of the very same word: Luke 9:36 20:26 /Acts 12:17 15:12,13 21:40 /Romans 16:25/ 1Co 14:28,30,34/, Rev. 8:1. There can be no doubt that this does not merely mean "sort of understood." If it was revealed, to whatever extent, then it was not held in silence

Paul does not refer to the term "mystery" as we understand from the "lenses" of our "modern culture", i.e., something that cannot be understood. It's not called the mystery because Paul is being "sneaky or coy about it." It's called the mystery because it was previously unknown, but now (in Paul's epistles) it is openly manifested, and to be understood. The mystery is not " something to be solved", and has no reference to "understandability", "illumination", since Paul says we can understand it. Paul openly explains it, and expects us to understand it NOW-a few examples:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." 1 Cor. 2:12

" Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:.." Eph. 1:9

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,.." Eph. 1:17,18


"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: " Eph. 3:1-10


"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,..." Eph. 6:19

"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;.." Col. 1:9

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:.." Col. 1:27


Read it-perhaps this will open your eyes re. one of the aspects of the mystery:

1 Cor. 2:
"7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

1 Cor. 15:1-4, the dbr, we know now. But it was hidden in the book. The 12 did not know it, "the princes of this world," i.e., satan and his gang, did not know it either. The LORD God hid it from everyone. And why? Satan's goal was to exterminate the seed. The LORD God, in His "wisdom," let the serpent think that by crucifying His only begotten Son, "the Lord of glory," that Satan would "win." But the LORD God tricked him! Had satan and his minions known the resulting ramifications of what the death, burial, resurrection accomplished, he would not have done it!

Perhaps a secular example will drive home the point. Superman tricks General Zod.


"He switched it...he(Superman) did it to them(General Zod and his gang)...."-Lex Luther


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUORL-bvwA0

Get it? The LORD God hid the gospel of Christ on purpose-He tricked them! Part of the mystery-the mystery of the gospel.

Mystery-hid.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Kept secret since the world began, but is NOW made manifest, doens't actually mean it was kept secret. :plain:
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
" For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." 1 Cor. 13:9,10

Paul in 1 Cor. 12:31 asserts that a change was in the offing-he instructs the Corinthians that, for the time present, they should choose to exercise the most profitable gifts, such as prophecy. But they were to understand that these miraculous, supernatural manifestations would soon give way to something far superior. The timeline for this change is given in 1 Cor. 13:10.

The context here is knowledge in an incomplete state. Paul, at this
time, had only received a part of the knowledge he was going to receive from the risen, ascended, and glorified Lord Jesus Christ from heaven, i.e. he received "progressive revelation"(Acts 9:6,16; 18:9; 22:10,16-17; 26:16; 2 Cor. 12:1; 1 Cor. 11:23-25; Galatians 2:2; Eph. 3:3). 1 Cor. 13:10's context is thus that which is in part=knowledge, that which is perfect =knowledge, so when the perfect knowledge is come the incomplete knowledge is done away with.

Those of the charismatic persuasion, often teach that "that
which is perfect" refers to Jesus Christ, or His second coming("when
we see Him"). In short, the supernatural sign gifts will continue
until the rapture/second coming, and many times view those who do not possess these gifts are looked down upon as living in carnality. I
would remind those who hold this view that the Corinthian believers
were anything but spiritually minded(Paul says they were carnal and
babes=immature), yet they exercised these gifts to the glory of God.
It was not a matter of one's spirituality; rather these gifts were
given according to God's plans and purposes at that time(discussed in other posts).

The context mentions nothing about the rapture or the second coming of Christ. The context is knowledge. He is not talking about a person, but a thing which is coming. If this is about the Lord Jesus Christ coming back, then the supernatural gifts MUST COME
TO AN END WHEN HE COMES BACK. This is an inescapable conclusion. But read carefully Acts 2:16:

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall
come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit
upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and
your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come...." Acts 2:16-20

But we see that Peter quotes Joel about the Spirit being poured out in the last days when the Lord Jesus Christ comes back, and the
supernatural gifts are increased, not stopped! The gifts are in main
operation as a sign of that time.

(Additionally, for those who "consult the Greek", the construction of
1 Cor. 13:10 is in the neuter gender, which indicates an inanimate object is in view, such as a book. If the person of Christ is the subject of this passage, the construction would require the masculine
gender, i.e., to be grammatically correct the verse would have to read "But when He who is perfect is come....."However, since the noun "that" is in the neuter gender, it cannot be referring to Christ).

So there you "Thus saith the Greek"(Geek) "scholars."

The word "perfect", in this context, means mature, complete,
full(Philippians 3:12,15). Paul is not saying he is sinless...perfect
does not always mean sinless. 1 Tim. 3:16-17 is scripture for us to be perfect...mature....complete....This is Paul's last epistle, and
notice that it is possible to be "perfect" in this sense, to know in
full, but at the time Paul penned his letter to the Corinthians, they
did not have the full knowledge of God because it HAD NOT BEEN
WRITTEN, so they could only know in part.

Today we do not need the gifts because we no longer know in part-we have the completed word of God through Paul(Colossians 1:25)., to make us "perfect unto every good work".

The sign gifts were withdrawn upon completion of the word of God. We do not need to go outside the word of God. When "that" (the Word of God, in particular, Paul's epistles)which is perfect(completion-an end accomplished as the effect of a
process) is come, then "that"(the supernatural sign gifts) which is
"in part"(the incomplete way) shall be done away. With the completion of Paul's epistles the sign gifts vanished away(ever notice Timothy is sick? 1 Tim. 5:23/Trophimus sick? 2 Tim. 4:20/Ephaproditus sick? Philippians 2:25-30/Paul had "Dr. Luke" with him, a physician, and could not get out of prison-compare to Acts 5:19, 12:7-this is a clear indication that the miraculous "signs"/"healings" were passed. Those who deny this are being dishonest). This is reinforced when we understand that
it was given Paul to fulfil, or complete, the word of God insofar as
extent(Col. 1:25). He completed the scriptures in regard to the
mystery)Romans 16:25, Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:25,26 and others).

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I
thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish
things." 1 Cor. 13:11


Paul uses 2 illustrations to confirm his argument.

He begins by contrasting childhood with adulthood(one of the themes of his lovingly correcting the Corinthians for their childish
ways-"babes")-contrasting a child with a man, the immature with the
mature. The child is the one who is incomplete, or continues to act as
though that which is perfect(the written word of God) has not come. A child is not mature-the child lacks knowledge. The man is the one who puts away childish things and accepts that which is perfect. A man is fully mature, has enough knowledge to live as an adult. This child is the Corinthian Church, the body of Christ at it's beginning, still
learning. In Ephesians 2 the combination of Jew and Gentile is a new
man, and in 2 Cor. 5:17 we are a new creature, but in it's infancy the
church, the body of Christ, is a child that needs to grow. Spiritual
gifts are childish things that need to be put away. The sign gifts,
Paul argues, were the immature way. When we became adults, we put away all our childhood toys. Hence, our immaturity was gradually replaced with a fuller, "complete" understanding of things once we became adults. Thus, the supernatural sign gifts were put aside with the maturing of the dispensation which came with the completion of Paul's revelation.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I
know in part; but then shall
I know even as also I am known." 1 Cor. 13:12

Here Paul uses a mirror to further illustrate his argument. Unlike
today, in biblical times, mirrors were often pieces of polished metal
from which one could barely make out his/her image. That is, they were looking into a mirror that was not clear. The general shape of things could be seen-the sign gifts, similarly, were like looking into an
"unclear" mirror-they were an indication that everything had not yet
"come into focus". Therefore, with the advent of God's written
revelation further clarity was given so we could see, as it were,
"face to face". That is, God made it possible for us to see more
clearly the whole counsel of His will through the His completed
written revelation. Again, we "know in part"-the thing being completed is knowledge-the written word of God. When the completion of the mystery revelation given through Paul came, there was no more need of the sign gifts to provide further knowledge and revelation. The word of God was then complete. Thus the gifts "vanish away", they "cease". "and now abideth faith, hope, charity....."


1 Cor. 13:12 is not talking of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will never
see Him when we look into a mirror. The context is still knowledge. The full revelation of the mystery had not been revealed-scripture was incomplete. Paul knew he was to receive more knowledge(2 Cor. 12:1).

They had a "fuzzy", general understanding of the body of Christ, but
it wasn't "clear"(hence the mirror illustration). Paul is contrasting
how things are now with how things will be seen from when 1 Cor. was written. But from the point of 2 Tim. 3:17, we are complete, throughly furnished. We have God's full word, we no longer need the gifts-so they ceased. This was part of Paul's ministry-to bring the word of God to it's fullness, to make it complete(Col. 1:25). 2 Tim completed the scriptures.

There is no further revelation from God forthcoming, despite so-called
modern day "prophet"'s claims to the contrary.All he has to say is
completed and contained in the book we know as the Holy Bible. There are no more sign gifts, prophecies, or words of knowledge-the reason for these has ceased with the completed written revelation.

Nick's point-the reason for the sign gifts..


This is a very unpopular teaching because many churches teach that we can have certain gifts to help us grow. or to help the church prosper. But we are not to live by feelings, or experience, but by faith in the word of God, and the word of God says these sign gifts were to cease.


Those who support the view that the sign gifts are valid today refuse
to discuss the purpose for which they were given. Additionally, they
refuse to answer such questions as:

Why does Benny Hinn, or any other so-called "man of God", need a
translator when he is in a country where English is not the primary
> > language? Proponents of the "tongues" movement are forced into either : 1.redefining the scriptural definition of tongues, and/or 2. State that the early Acts tongues were different than the tongues manifested at Corinth. Neither position has any scriptural warrant, as discussed in previous posts.

Put away the toys, kids, and shuck the "Back to Pentecost" jive, which was part of the prophetic program, which is temporarily suspended, as we are now living in the mystery program, the dispensation of the grace of God.

Grow up.

Prophecy

vs.

Mystery

Recognize the difference.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Benny is not representative of classical, biblical Pentecostalism.

Can someone find out where johnw is cutting and pasting from?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Benny is not representative of classical, biblical Pentecostalism.

He most certainly is. He was the pinnacle of "Christianity" in the AoG two decades ago. He was evidence that "pentecostals" are the real church.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Benny is not representative of classical, biblical Pentecostalism.

Can someone find out where johnw is cutting and pasting from?

Standard droid cliche from a lost, emotional, effeminate, nutty fruitcake Penty, who couldn't connect a few verses even if he had a shot of the "spirit", from the Holy Ghost bartender.

"god" rulz MO: Your exegesis/eisegesis does not stand up to scrutiny. Your views are flawed. (1 Cor....., a few disjointed verses, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,....Are you a universalist?.....")... blah blah blah.

Watch his standard, spam response.....do not quench the spirit....and all that jazz.

Stuff your commentary cliches, pervert.

Get saved, con artist, and clown of TOL. Wolf. Your a joke, a court jester, and even you know it, Pentecostal charlatan. Actor.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
He most certainly is. He was the pinnacle of "Christianity" in the AoG two decades ago. He was evidence that "pentecostals" are the real church.

AOG does not condone Benny nor his teachings when they are contrary to Scripture. Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker were also AOG decades ago, but were disciplined and rejected for deviating from sound belief and practice. Go find another straw man to attack.

:deadhorse:
 

Ryan Collins

New member
I wish. I am not talking about Bible links like I use, but the rest of his nonsensical rambling. His personal attacks are him, but any didactic stuff that sounds cogent is from another source (some MAD website or something).
AKA, Plagiarism. It is fairly easy to know if it is John's original work or someone else.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi,

Never try to defend the churches because many of the enemies of Christ are in them including John W and Nick M.



Defend the Word of God , which John W fights against.

LA.
 

Ryan Collins

New member
So far, I've found that he copied and pasted from a post by a John M. Whalen from worthychristianforums.com which I am assuming is him. More investigative work to come...

EDIT: Looks like its authentic work.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
I wish. I am not talking about Bible links like I use, but the rest of his nonsensical rambling. His personal attacks are him, but any didactic stuff that sounds cogent is from another source (some MAD website or something).

More spam from the clown, religious, man worshiping humanist.

Translation: You were not qualified to speak on your own "argument"(loosely employed here), so it is obvious that you are an ignorant(a good biblical word, that, you, of course, believe is not "Biblical", since you do not survey and believe the Holy Bible) blowhard, even you can see it.

Clown. And where do you get your fluff? Your stack of commentaries, and your feelings. Emotional friutcake, preaching your gospel of the kingdom, and pretending the sign gifts are still in operation. Charlatan. Con "man."

You talk like a typical, saved, insane, luny, charismatic, apostate/reprobate Christian(with one difference-you are lost), who has flaky, shaky salvation, relying on your flaky, shaky revolving door emotions/feelings/experiences, which is typical of the modern day apostate/reprobate carnal Corinthian. You talk like them. They talk like you. You act like the Corinthians, a kindergartener, carnal, spiritually, despite your biological age, and all your "proof texting, exegesis, begs the question.....ad Nauseam", as one who fails to recognize the dispensational change, and is still on the "milk" of "Back to Pentecost", unable to "bear" the meat of the mystery.

Charismatics, in large part, are religious humanists, who believe they are helping the pope, and the U.N., to bring in the kingdom, and make this world a better place in which to live for nice, sweet, good "Christian" folk, etc. Just turn on CBN, TBN, Promiseland TV, Daystar.......and watch the lunacy(Eccl. 10:13). It's also called "Entertainment Today."

Wolf. Joke.

Get saved.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
So far, I've found that he copied and pasted from a post by a John M. Whalen from worthychristianforums.com which I am assuming is him. More investigative work to come...

EDIT: Looks like its authentic work.

So, checking me out, eh Ry punk? Give us your "credentials," "scholar," so we can check you out, what you learned at the cemetery, and what you are copying and spamming.

"worthychristianforums.com "-Ry "dude"

Yes, dude, while you were in diapers, and/or smoking a little haseesh, I was expounding on the book. And you are still probably bonging, aren't you sport? Groovy.
 
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