Free Will

[blackbirdking]

, ...Their only hope is open theism,...

Your right; a god who knows and goes ahead anyway, is not to be trusted; it's impossible to trust someone who calls creation 'very good', while knowing he is going to destroy it with water, and again by fire. You can hope, but you can't trust; there is nothing to trust.

Could your kids trust you, if, they found out that you knew before they were conceived, that they were going to be molested and tortured by you, and were still conceived?

Could you trust enough to marry one who believes it's good to kill, in order to have his/her own way?

If you believe God created mankind, knowing they are going to damnation, and called it 'very good', you have nothing but hope; and little of it, because it's 'very good' that men are damned.

Can you prove foreknowledge totally negates freedom of choice?
...and still in his infinity of will and innovation, can still have his will ultimately prevail due to his sovereign control over all other elements in creation bearing down on the whole, while man is given freedom to act within those bounderies.

"within those boundaries"?

Then it is God's will for some to be eternally damned. How is your final conclusion any different from that of Calvinism?

 

[TulipBee]

Your right; a god who knows and goes ahead anyway, is not to be trusted; it's impossible to trust someone who calls creation 'very good', while knowing he is going to destroy it with water, and again by fire. You can hope, but you can't trust; there is nothing to trust.

Could your kids trust you, if, they found out that you knew before they were conceived, that they were going to be molested and tortured by you, and were still conceived?

Could you trust enough to marry one who believes it's good to kill, in order to have his/her own way?

If you believe God created mankind, knowing they are going to damnation, and called it 'very good', you have nothing but hope; and little of it, because it's 'very good' that men are damned.




"within those boundaries"?

Then it is God's will for some to be eternally damned. How is your final conclusion any different from that of Calvinism?

Don't blame me! Blame the bible in my hands. God goes ahead and saves his sheep anyway even while they were enemies.

 

[blackbirdking]

Don't blame me! Blame the bible in my hands. QUOTE]

Wrong; blame the glasses you wear.
Take off the glasses and read the whole Bible.

You know we can argue verses forever; study the character of God. Your concept of Him did not come from reading the Bible, but rather, by hearing a man.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Take off the glasses and read the WHOLE Bible. Forget what man taught you.

 

[meshak]

Don't blame me! Blame the bible in my hands. QUOTE]

Wrong; blame the glasses you wear.
Take off the glasses and read the whole Bible.

You know we can argue verses forever; study the character of God. Your concept of Him did not come from reading the Bible, but rather, by hearing a man.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Take off the glasses and read the WHOLE Bible. Forget what man taught you.

well said, Amen

 

[TulipBee]

Don't blame me! Blame the bible in my hands. QUOTE]

Wrong; blame the glasses you wear.
Take off the glasses and read the whole Bible.

You know we can argue verses forever; study the character of God. Your concept of Him did not come from reading the Bible, but rather, by hearing a man.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Take off the glasses and read the WHOLE Bible. Forget what man taught you.

You're trying hard to believe. Hope you get there.

 

[freelight]

"within those boundaries"?

Then it is God's will for some to be eternally damned. How is your final conclusion any different from that of Calvinism?

If your read my commentary here so far and elsewhere you'll see I'm very much opposed to Calvinism, so you misread my post. I was responding to TB's statement -

"Their only hope is open theism, a god who doesn't know the future."

I offered leniency towards the possibility of the truth of 'open theism', in that God knows all potentials and possibilities within the scope of free will choices, but that no soul is predestined or "fated" to be doomed from a pre-determined decree from before the world was created, HENCE all souls have full range of genuine free will to CHOOSE life or death in every rising moment until some point where their 'choice' is finalized in an ultimate sense. (some will attain life into the ages, some will choose death).

I lean towards a more libertarian view, close to classical Arminianism.

 

[bling]

If God knows the future then we are not free to do anything other than that which He knows we will do.

The heretical Pelagian copout, "well He did not CAUSE it," fails to rescue the doctrine of free will. Free will implies the ability to do something different. But as long as God knows with certainty what we will do then we can't do anything different. No free will then.

Their only hope is open theism, a god who doesn't know the future. Or a molinist blasphemy that claims men existed before God existed.

It is not future time for God, since God is outside of time, but it is man’s future and God in communicating with man can talk about the future, so:
God knows our future, because it is history for Him (God in the distant future of man is the same God at the beginning of time), so God know all man’s free will choices as history (what man did). History cannot be changed, since it happened for God (the God of our future which is the same God of the past).
What free will choices we make in our future where already made by us, but that does not mean we are making them again or we did not make them of our own free will. Our future choices are “set” but they have been set by us and not by God’s knowledge. They are the decisions we made.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It is not future time for God, since God is outside of time, but it is man’s future and God in communicating with man can talk about the future, so:
God knows our future, because it is history for Him (God in the distant future of man is the same God at the beginning of time), so God know all man’s free will choices as history (what man did). History cannot be changed, since it happened for God (the God of our future which is the same God of the past).
What free will choices we make in our future where already made by us, but that does not mean we are making them again or we did not make them of our own free will. Our future choices are “set” but they have been set by us and not by God’s knowledge. They are the decisions we made.

The Bible does not teach that God is outside of time.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[freelight]

The Bible does not teach that God is outside of time.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

Hi JR,

You know thats debatable - many Christians don't accept OT (Open Theism). - I do enjoy and explore aspects of OT,...since I'm an electic and progressive

But to your claim above,...consider that the Bible doesn't also claim that God is limited to or confined to time. Concepts of eternity and infinity may go beyond our human finite conception of 'time'....and God by definition of being eternal-infinite is not necessarily confined to our definition of time. We've had some great threads on this here in the past, unfortunately they got purged in the last server upgrade, as older threads were 'deleted'.

See here.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Hi JR,

You know thats debatable - many Christians don't accept OT (Open Theism). - I do enjoy and explore aspects of OT,...since I'm an electic and progressive

But to your claim above,...consider that the Bible doesn't also claim that God is limited to or confined to time. Concepts of eternity and infinity may go beyond our human finite conception of 'time'....and God by definition of being eternal-infinite is not necessarily confined to our definition of time. We've had some great threads on this here in the past, unfortunately they got purged in the last server upgrade, as older threads were 'deleted'.

See here.

God is, and was, and is to come. That seems pretty clear that God is not outside of time.

www.kgov.com/time

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[freelight]

Indefinity.............

Indefinity.............

God is, and was, and is to come. That seems pretty clear that God is not outside of time.

www.kgov.com/time

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

- indeed, the Infinite includes all that can be defined within any points in time, but must include also that which is prior to or beyond any definitions, the indefinite - I sometimes like to refer to it as Indefinity

Hence, I've usually opined that 'God' is both within and without time.

Note, that you have to expand consciousness to consider the paradox here, as 'God' being both 'immanent' and 'trasncendent' (pan-en-theism). Hence, 'God' is both within dimensions and without dimensions. Infinity is by definition limitless and therefore includes all that can be defined or is definable, but also outside of those boundary-points.

This is a fun subject, but perhaps for another thread. I refer to a post of mine here on Knight's thread 'Proof from the Bible that God is in time' - maybe continuing this discussion there is an option, if it goes much further.

 

[TulipBee]

 

[God's Truth]

God chooses those WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM!

 

[beloved57]

God chooses those WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM!

False statements not found in scripture.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[JudgeRightly]

God chooses those WHO BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM!

False statements not found in scripture.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

God chooses to save or sets aside groups of people, he generally does not choose to save individuals. (eg the nation of Israel, the Jews, etc)

It is up to the people to determine if they want to be a part of that group that is saved.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[God's Truth]

God chooses to save or sets aside groups of people, he generally does not choose to save individuals.

That is just an ignorant thing to say.
How is it that people can twist the truth to make it a confusing lie is beyond me.

(eg the nation of Israel, the Jews, etc)

It is up to the people to determine if they want to be a part of that group that is saved.

We have to decide if we want a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is just an ignorant thing to say.
How is it that people can twist the truth to make it a confusing lie is beyond me.

Read the Bible and this is what you will find, that God decided that a certain group of people would be His, but that the individuals themselves would have to choose to be a part of it.

We have to decide if we want a personal relationship with Jesus.

Perhaps I should have clarified in the part you quoted. It is up to the individual to put their faith in Jesus. A nation cannot make its people to go heaven. Only the individual can make that choice.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[God's Truth]

Read the Bible and this is what you will find, that God decided that a certain group of people would be His, but that the individuals themselves would have to choose to be a part of it.



Perhaps I should have clarified in the part you quoted. It is up to the individual to put their faith in Jesus. A nation cannot make its people to go heaven. Only the individual can make that choice.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

Each person has to decide if they want to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Jesus saves individuals.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Each person has to decide if they want to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

Jesus saves individuals.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[God's Truth]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

No, you didn't say that. You said, "...he generally does not choose to save individuals."