Free Will

[JudgeRightly]

No, you didn't say that. You said, "...he generally does not choose to save individuals."

My point was that, contrary to what people who oppose the free will doctrine say, God doesn't predetermine who goes where, he only says that groups of people are His people, such as the group called "Christians" or the "Nation of Israel." People (individuals) are the ones who choose to be a part of those groups.

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[meshak]

My point was that, contrary to what people who oppose the free will doctrine say, God doesn't predetermine who goes where, he only says that groups of people are His people, such as the group called "Christians" or the "Nation of Israel." People (individuals) are the ones who choose to be a part of those groups.

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We all will be judged according to what we have done, not according to what nation or church you belong.

 

[steko]

We all will be judged according to what we have done, not according to what nation or church you belong.

What we've done ain't good enough.

Therefore if we are judged on that basis, we lose.

 

[meshak]

What we've done ain't good enough.

Therefore if we are judged on that basis, we lose.

It is Jesus who said it, not me.

As usual, you continually dismiss Jesus' word.

You seem to believe you are better judge than Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

What we've done ain't good enough.

Therefore if we are judged on that basis, we lose.

We have to do what Jesus tells us all to do.

His words are life.

 

[freelight]

Actions, sequence, consequence.....

Actions, sequence, consequence.....

What we've done ain't good enough.

Therefore if we are judged on that basis, we lose.

Of course salvation is by grace,...all is by grace,.....but all actions still have their 'karmic effects' (even if relaxed, atoned for or attenuated), since all souls are still judged "according to their works". No matter your belief in salvation or being saved by 'grace', - whatever that means or how that actually benefits you....there is still 'karma' (actions and their effects). Grace allows forgiveness of sins, atonement, salvation, restoration, etc, but you still reap what you sow.

"God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows, that also shall he reap".

Now how this plays out in a NT economy of salvation is a matter of 'speculation',...but do note,...even if you have theoretical salvation.... if you're sowing to the flesh,....you reap carnal ends (death), while if you sow to the Spirit, your reap spiritual ends (life, peace). - and this is all a matter of 'interpretation'. Grace provides for all good, but it still appears to be a matter of choosing (free will).

See: Christianity vs. karma

 

[Nihilo]

I didn't know where else to put this, but in the time of Adam and Eve, when Eve was instructed to eat the Apple, did that mean the devil gave her the free will to do it? Or does it mean he was opening eves awareness to do things she wasn't instructed to do, like disobeying God (much like he did), and in a way exercising her free will?

All in all, who gave us free will, God who created us with that capacity , or the devil who let the early humans understand we had that capacity?

We can treasurest up unto ourselves wrath (Ro2:5KJV) either inadvertently or deliberately (mutual exclusivity).

If you deliberately choose to jump off a cliff, because you were fooled into believing you could fly, in a sense, you don't deserve the wrath (of the landing), but that doesn't matter to the law of gravity, which will grind you into powder whether you thought you could fly or not. You will be crushed by the wrath of the law.

"who gave us free will, God who created us with that capacity , or the devil who let the early humans understand we had that capacity?"-You

God.

 

[blackbirdking]

You're trying hard to believe. Hope you get there.

Strange, but I do believe, in a God who wants me to love and trust Him by exercising my will. I can quit any time I choose to but I don't; He kinda likes it that way, knowing I love Him out of a heart that could rather love someone else. He likes being #1 because I choose not to refuse Him by an act of my free will.


Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Yea, He gives me grace to do so, but my love for Him is more special than if I had no choice. If you would exercise your will, and love Him from your heart, you too could be a believer, in a God who desires your love, given freely to Him by an act of your will.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Can you pass the test?

In order for love to be love, it has to be free, an act of a free will; an ability given to every man by a Sovereign God, obtained by the blood of a 'perfect lamb'.

 

[TulipBee]

Strange, but I do believe, in a God who wants me to love and trust Him by exercising my will. I can quit any time I choose to but I don't; He kinda likes it that way, knowing I love Him out of a heart that could rather love someone else. He likes being #1 because I choose not to refuse Him by an act of my free will.


Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Yea, He gives me grace to do so, but my love for Him is more special than if I had no choice. If you would exercise your will, and love Him from your heart, you too could be a believer, in a God who desires your love, given freely to Him by an act of your will.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Can you pass the test?

In order for love to be love, it has to be free, an act of a free will; an ability given to every man by a Sovereign God, obtained by the blood of a 'perfect lamb'.

Can't quit if you don't know how. If you knew how then you never had it

 

[ttruscott]

No one is saved by an act of free will because their enslavement to evil has destroyed their free will.

Everyone became evil ONLY by a free will decison to reject GOD or HIS plan for them. NO ONE is made a sinner by their being created a certain way or by being deceived by anyone...they are not guilty of sin because to break a law there must be mens rea, the intent to break the law, the intent to sin.

Free will allows us to choose sin but it cannot help us to choose salvation since sinners have no free will.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No one is saved by an act of free will because their enslavement to evil has destroyed their free will.

Everyone became evil ONLY by a free will decison to reject GOD or HIS plan for them. NO ONE is made a sinner by their being created a certain way or by being deceived by anyone...they are not guilty of sin because to break a law there must be mens rea, the intent to break the law, the intent to sin.

Free will allows us to choose sin but it cannot help us to choose salvation since sinners have no free will.

So Deuteronomy 30:19 doesn't mean anything to you?

*But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, *I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. *I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; *that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.” - Deuteronomy 30:17-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy30:17-20&version=NKJV

 

[blackbirdking]

No one is saved by an act of free will because their enslavement to evil has destroyed their free will.

So when one is saved it just happens to them. Then they can't choose?

Everyone became evil ONLY by a free will decison to reject GOD or HIS plan for them. NO ONE is made a sinner by their being created a certain way or by being deceived by anyone...

Then explain:
Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

...they are not guilty of sin because to break a law there must be mens rea, the intent to break the law, the intent to sin.

And please explain:
Numbers 15:28
'The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven.

Free will allows us to choose sin but it cannot help us to choose salvation since sinners have no free will.

So we're born sinless, we choose to sin, loose are ability to choose, and we're saved against our will if we're chosen; sweet. Do we get our choose-ability back again? Is everybody saved?

 

[blackbirdking]

Can't quit if you don't know how. If you knew how then you never had it

Never had what?

Can you pass the test?

So you admit you serve God because you have no choice; oops, that's not love. You failed the test.

You can/will never have a good marriage.

 

[oatmeal]

I didn't know where else to put this, but in the time of Adam and Eve, when Eve was instructed to eat the Apple, did that mean the devil gave her the free will to do it? Or does it mean he was opening eves awareness to do things she wasn't instructed to do, like disobeying God (much like he did), and in a way exercising her free will?

All in all, who gave us free will, God who created us with that capacity , or the devil who let the early humans understand we had that capacity?

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God gave man the ability to reason and to choose.

Hence, we find truths like "choose you this day whom ye shall serve"

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Deuteronomy 30:19 and context, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Mark 9:23-24

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

There are many, many other scriptures that make it clear that it is up to us to decide to believe or not to believe

 

[beloved57]

God gave man the ability to reason and to choose. Hence, we find truths like "choose you this day whom ye shall serve" Joshua 24:15; Deuteronomy 30:19 and context, Mark 9:23-24

Show me a scripture that says God gave man a freewill? I have been asking for that for over a decade here.

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[JudgeRightly]

Show me a scripture that says God gave man a freewill? I have been asking for that for over a decade here.

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I gave you one in Psalms.

 

[oatmeal]

Show me a scripture that says God gave man a freewill? I have been asking for that for over a decade here.

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Show you a scripture that says "God gave man a freewill" There is none. However, if you had read the verses I supplied, it is obvious that not only did God endow mankind with freewill, but that He expects man to use it!

Can you show me a scripture that says "God did not give man a freewill"???

 

[beloved57]

Show you a scripture that says "God gave man a freewill" There is none. However, if you had read the verses I supplied, it is obvious that not only did God endow mankind with freewill, but that He expects man to use it!

Can you show me a scripture that says "God did not give man a freewill"???

I know its none because man does not have a freewill. Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8. Does that sound like man has a freewill?

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[TulipBee]

Never had what?

So you admit you serve God because you have no choice; oops, that's not love. You failed the test.

You can/will never have a good marriage.

All mankind fell and never had the super free will to get back from where they fell from.

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[freelight]

hogwash.....

hogwash.....

All mankind fell and never had the super free will to get back from where they fell from.

Note they fell because of free will. Free will continues despite any assumed change in nature. One does not need 'super-will' to choose to change, since repentance can be had by anyone sincere enough to change their mind for the better.

It appears alot of folks are 'stuck' on the "original sin" and "Fall" concept....and because of their limiting belief-system....cant get up :crackup: