Far Better To Build Immune System than Count on Vaccines

Clete

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I am not planning a revolution. I plan to fight the Marxists on the web and trust God to put down all rebellion against God in His own time and manner.
Hoorah!

Lots of Christians have been murdered waiting on God to put down despotic governments. All I'm saying is that if a civil war starts here the likelihood is, just based on history, that you and I will be numbered among the murdered. As such, the government we have, as corrupt as it is, is better than most any alternative that has ever existed on this Earth. Best to remember that.
 

Clete

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Name one covid vaccine that was developed without using fetal tissues.
Until you, I've never seen anyone make the accusation against ANY vaccine other than the J&J vaccine and I tried for days to confirm it and was unable to do so and then as quickly as the story popped up, it went away. As a result, I am very skeptical of that accusation even in the case of the J&J vaccine which is produced in a manner altogether different than that of the MRNA vaccines.
 

benben

Active member
It's a proven fact that cell lines from aborted babies were used in the testing or production of the big three vaccines. To wit:

Moderna and Pfizer/BNT used the HEK293 cell line for testing (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1.full.pdf)

AZ used the PER.C6 cell line in production (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2607-z)

https://cogforlife.org/guidance/ has links to sources proving the use of cell lines derived from aborted babies

Remember, ignorance is a choice.
 

Clete

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That you claim there are no effective treatments is in no way resembling reality.

Every time the family of drugs like Ivermectin, HCQ, and other zinc ionophores are used in controlled environments on humans the improvement is dramatic. Way2Go has been posting the evidence consistently. You aren't paying attention to any of the evidence.

So after you look at the evidence, how many lives would have been saved in the US if we had treated patients the way Dr. Varon treated them? Now Dr. Varon's success rate was more than double the national average, but let's just say we could only achieve 1/2 the COVID deaths because of treatments... can you calculate what the excess death numbers would have been for 2020? I'll break it down for you if you can't.

Hold on there Hoss. If you know the clock is broken, then there is no need to look at it at all.

I smell a bad argument on your part. Can you tell me what I'm thinking it is? I'll spell it out for you if you are the type to appreciate when he's wrong.

The bottom line is that the conspiracy theorists were right. You should be asking "how were they right?" and you'll get to the truth, because there was sound reasoning used to evaluate the conspiracy. And please don't bring up Marke. Why do you keep talking with Marke?


They wouldn't suppress information on long term heart issues or fertility issues like they've suppressed treatments would they? You trust the government would tell the truth about that?

The vaccines were not only not the way out of this, but Israel proves the vaccines don't help at best and at worst they are worse than Sweden because of them. And don't claim that Israel has a much better death rate than the original COVID season, because their death rate is actually worse than a normal infectious disease second wave. Every season following a particularly bad flu season is also bad, but not as bad as the previous season.

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I've stopped obsessing over COVID numbers because they never move anyone an inch off of their position and so its a waste of time to bother with it.

Even if I concede your numbers, there is still no denying that the vaccines certainly were effective for a time - for several months at least, which gave us the time needed to figure out how to treat the disease. If the death rate at the beginning of this was what it is now, they never would have freaked out over it in the first place.
This is a good question. Since the evidence says the consequences for my demographic from COVID is less than the yearly flu on average, I'm OK with that consequence.
The government has no power to make you sick with COVID - duh - and so that isn't the consequences I was talking about. These mandates impose something like a $14,000 fine per instance against a company that does not comply with the order. There's not too many companies that are going to want to take that kind of risk in the name of your personal freedom and so if you decide to refuse to take the shot what is probably going to happen is that you will be fired and will find it all but impossible to find a new job where you won't have the same mandate in place and so you'll be unemployed and before long on the government pay roll for your unemployment payments. Just where the government wants to have people that don't want to follow their rules, in a position of weakness where they have something to hold over your head.

As far as political consequences are concerned, I'm sure the left wants me to be an outcast for not getting the jab. I might get the jab just to avoid the pressure because continuing to raise my kids to adulthood is more important. I'd risk the jab to avoid economic ruin or get poor health or poor fertility to continue to raise my kids. Threatening to take my children might be a part of the pressure that changes my mind about the jab.
Of course the government has no right to impose such rules and there is no situation where any parent in America should ever be made to make such decisions. The fact that we're right on the cusp of such things in America just goes to show how far down we've come. We are very much the slowly boiled frog. Such is the nature of the progressive agenda.
So I can appreciate that you have faith in the long term safety of the vaccine. The medical engineers have a pretty good track record. But my reason for not getting the jab is logical medically, and then civil disobedience only follows from and after that.
And I have no problem with that. I'm not here telling anything that they have to get the vaccine. All I'm arguing against is the totally fabricated nonsense of those here telling people that they should be scared to take the shot if they want to do so and against the idea that the vaccines don't work. It's nothing but fearmongering stupidity with non basis in fact, science, logic or any other rational faculty.

Clete
 

Clete

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I have lost some friends to covid as well, and many, many more friends and family members have already recovered from covid. Vaccinated Americans have gotten covid and died. What can we conclude from that, that covid vaccines are effective against the covid virus? Maybe somewhat, but certainly not completely.
I honestly can no longer tell if you're simply stupid or what? "Vaccinated Americans have gotten covid and died." SO WHAT?

There hasn't ever been anyone - ANYONE - ever claim that no one who takes the vaccine will ever come down with COVID. No one in the government, no one at Pfizer and no one from anywhere else has ever made any claim that is even remotely similar!
 

benben

Active member
There hasn't ever been anyone - ANYONE - ever claim that no one who takes the vaccine will ever come down with COVID. No one in the government, no one at Pfizer and no one from anywhere else has ever made any claim that is even remotely similar!

The sales pitch for the vaccines was ending the pandemic, and they're failing miserably.
 

Clete

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It's a proven fact that cell lines from aborted babies were used in the testing or production of the big three vaccines. To wit:

Moderna and Pfizer/BNT used the HEK293 cell line for testing (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1.full.pdf)

AZ used the PER.C6 cell line in production (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2607-z)

https://cogforlife.org/guidance/ has links to sources proving the use of cell lines derived from aborted babies

Remember, ignorance is a choice.
I've seen similar arguments. I'm not sure I accept your premise. It is dubious at best.

Name a vaccine - any vaccine or other drug that does not use similar technology or haven't you bothered to look that up?

The HEK293 cell line supposedly originated from a healthy aborted child in the 1970s. The support for this gem is extremely dubious.

Do you avoid any and all products that utilize that cell line or is it just today's politically hot COVID shots. Do you even bother to find out?

Even if these accusations are true, which I very much doubt by the way - what sounds contrived usually is contrived) should we ban anti Malaria drugs because back in the forties they intentionally infected prisoners with Malaria in order to test these drugs? How about the Hepatitis B vaccine, should be ban that because it was developed by means of war time atrocities? The Smallpox vaccine included a virus that could “shed” and infect others who are not research participants, should we then ban the use of the vaccine?

Seems to me that the principle taught Genesis 50:20 might apply is such situations.
 

Clete

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Roger Stone was arrested in the middle of the night at the point of dozens of guns because he was falsely accused of lying to Congress. Dr. Fauci was not arrested even though he clearly lied to Congress. The left excuses crimes committed by leftists while inventing false allegations of conservative crimes.
I what universe is this in any way responsive to what I said?
 

benben

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The HEK293 cell line supposedly originated from a healthy aborted child in the 1970s. The support for this gem is extremely dubious.
The places that sell the cell line to labs literally use the word "aborted" to describe the source of the line. Did you even bother to view the links? Let's try an analogy. If you go to a butcher and he tells you that the ground beef came from a local cow, are you going to scoff and say, "The support for this gem is extremely dubious"? That just as absurd as what you're doing right now.

should we ban anti Malaria drugs because back in the forties they intentionally infected prisoners with Malaria in order to test these drugs?
If I were around back then I would have boycotted any company that did that, absolutely. I'm not calling for banning the vaccines. I'm for banning abortion which would make the issue moot. I don't want to encourage the legitimization of abortion by supporting companies that use cell lines from aborted babies.

The Smallpox vaccine included a virus that could “shed” and infect others who are not research participants, should we then ban the use of the vaccine?
The modern varicella vaccine can do this too.
 

marke

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Seriously? Are you really incapable of thinking this through for yourself?

First of all, I never made that claim but I don't care about that because you seem basically incapable of having a rational discussion. I have no doubt that your twisted, willful ignorant mind managed somehow to translate what I said.

However....

Let's say there are 1000 people in the hospital because of COVID today but there would be 50,000 in the hospital if not for the vaccine then the vaccine has reduced the number of people in the hospital because of COVID by a factor of 50 regardless of how many people who are currently in the hospital have gotten the shot.

Now, those aren't the real numbers, obviously, (i.e. the real numbers are almost certainly far and away better than that!) but do you understand the point?

The point is that you refuse to look at the whole picture. You focus on things that cast the issue in the darkest possible light and then refuse to be moved by anything that even sounds positive. If there were no vaccine and we had 20% of our population in the hospital or worse, you'd be begging for a vaccine that was even half as effective as the ones we have right now! Imagine that! A vaccine half as effective would have many many thousands of vaccinated people in the hospital but you'd still be begging for it because if we didn't already have one you couldn't twist and conflate the numbers the way you're doing now. Any baboon could tell that even a marginally effective vaccine is better than none at all and forget about one that is over 90% effective like the ones that actually exist. That would be a pipe dream no one would consider possible.


You say things you now are false or should know are false and, after being corrected, you ignore the correction and repeat the same falsehoods.

That's a liar in my book and you can count on me continuing to call you one unless and until you repent. Get used to it.
Science: Thousands of recipients of covid vaccines have died from the effects of the vaccine.
Science: Tens of thousands of vaccine recipients have gotten seriously ill from the covid vaccine.

Unverified hype: Tens of thousands more people would be in hospitals today if not for the covid vaccine.
 

marke

Well-known member
Hoorah!

Lots of Christians have been murdered waiting on God to put down despotic governments. All I'm saying is that if a civil war starts here the likelihood is, just based on history, that you and I will be numbered among the murdered. As such, the government we have, as corrupt as it is, is better than most any alternative that has ever existed on this Earth. Best to remember that.
A government that has murdered more innocent humans than Hitler murdered Jews is not better than a government that defends God-given rights against thieves, thugs, morons, terrorists, racists and radicals.
 

marke

Well-known member
Until you, I've never seen anyone make the accusation against ANY vaccine other than the J&J vaccine and I tried for days to confirm it and was unable to do so and then as quickly as the story popped up, it went away. As a result, I am very skeptical of that accusation even in the case of the J&J vaccine which is produced in a manner altogether different than that of the MRNA vaccines.
Nearly all vaccines used fetal tissues at some point during the development. This report claims fetal tissues were not used in the vaccine itself by one company, but that vaccine used fetal tissues in the early testing stages. That is my point.


The Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines are not produced using fetal cells. Fetal cells were used in the early development and testing of these vaccines. • Viruses need living cells to grow. Researchers have developed “cell lines” of living cells that reproduce themselves indefinitely in the laboratory, and they are used to grow viruses. Early in the development of these COVID-19 vaccines, a fetal cell line was used to test that the active ingredient, messenger RNA, worked as intended. The tests showed that messenger RNA, when introduced into human cells, produces the viral protein that makes us develop immunity against the virus that causes COVID-19. The Johnson & Johnson vaccine is produced using a fetal cell line. • The Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses a virus (“Adenovirus 26”) that cannot reproduce itself. When this virus is introduced into human cells, they produce the same viral protein as the other vaccines, which makes us develop immunity to COVID-19. Producing this vaccine virus does require the use of a fetal cell line, specifically PER.C6.
 

benben

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Now explain how that's possible given that the majority of cases and deaths are and have been in the fully vaccinated (source: https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus...n-in-israels-outbreak-among-vaccinated-people. Hint: it's not a trick question. The explanation is done with simple arithmetic.
You posted a link to a dated article from July 20th that is pro-vaccine? That's hilarious.

For every death of an Israeli over 60 that had received the booster shot, there are roughly 15 deaths of unvaccinated Israelis in the same age group. Those that have yet to receive even one shot of a COVID vaccine are only 17 percent of the eligible population in Israel, but they currently represent 65 percent of all serious cases in the country.
 
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Clete

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The places that sell the cell line to labs literally use the word "aborted" to describe the source of the line. Did you even bother to view the links? Let's try an analogy. If you go to a butcher and he tells you that the ground beef came from a local cow, are you going to scoff and say, "The support for this gem is extremely dubious"? That just as absurd as what you're doing right now.
Yes, I looked at the links and the say things like "the date cannot be confirmed".

Look, I'm not saying its false, I'm saying that I don't trust it. I'm as right wing of a Christian as you're likely to find. I hate the killing of babies as much as anyone else but I've seen some otherwise well meaning Christians get very myopic when it comes to political issues and when it comes to science, their track record is less than stellar to say the least. There are clear exceptions to that so please don't think I'm painting the whole movment with a broad brush here. All I'm saying is that I default on the side of causion when it comes to believing people who think every single issue in life is somehow tied to abortion and even if this particular factoid turns out to be true, I'm not convinced that using it to divorce yourself from anything legitimately good that happens to come out of what was clearly an evil act, makes a lot of sense. Even God Himself uses for good that which was intended for evil.

If I were around back then I would have boycotted any company that did that, absolutely.
Well you're around now, right?! We're still benefiting from evil to this very day. How is it any different?

I'm not calling for banning the vaccines. I'm for banning abortion which would make the issue moot. I don't want to encourage the legitimization of abortion by supporting companies that use cell lines from aborted babies.
You see, I just don't buy that line of thinking.

Did God encourage the legitimacy of selling one's brother into slavery when He made Joseph the 2nd in command of Egypt by which many thousands of lives were saved? Would it have somehow been legitimate for Jospeh's brothers to claim credit for the good God did through Jospeh? "Well if we hadn't sold him into slavery none of this famine relief would have ever happened and the whole country would have died. We saved Egypt!" Would that line of thinking fly? I don't think so! If not then why would I be held responsible "legitimazing evil" for doing good?
It seems to me that you do the good that you can do. Why should I risk my life and the lives of my family because of an act of evil done fifty years ago by someone I didn't know?

The modern varicella vaccine can do this too.
Okay, so does that cross some ethical line for you? It's not the easiest question to answer. There are times when the good really does out weigh the bad. I don't know whether this is one of those times or not but just arbitrarily stating that you are going to boycott a vaccine because of XYZ evil act that happened so long ago that not even the people telling you when it happened know the details, doesn't pass the smell test for me. It just seems reactionary and fruitless.
 
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