Faith to believe on Christ !

Hoping

Well-known member
Never heard of such a thing. Yet men by nature don't seek after God, that I heard of.
You've never met someone who quit smoking?
You've never met anybody, besides me, who actually turned from sin?
You've never met anybody who gave up drugs or drinking?
People's priorities define their nature, their nature doesn't define their priorities.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
As long as man has his original nature from birth, he doesnt seek after God.
I can't agree with that assumption.
I myself sought after God well before I was reborn.
As you can't believe that, please tell me how the old man was killed so the new man could take its place?
In fact he doesnt even understand the True God. Why you think Jesus said a person must be born again ?
As that which is born of the flesh cannot enter into heaven, man must be born of the Spirit to enter in.
It is only our understanding of the true God that compels us to seek after Him.
Without regret for our sins will we ever cease from committing them.
And no sinner will enter into eternal life.
 

beloved57

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But it's not done arbitrarily.

It's done to those who believe. NOT those who do not.
Its done according to Gods sovereign will, He quickens whom He wills, and when He wills. Its only after being quickened to life can one believe. Otherwise we remain natural men and dead to God.
 

JudgeRightly

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Its done according to Gods sovereign will,

God's sovereign will is that those who believe shall be saved, and given new life.

Not the reverse.

He quickens whom He wills, and when He wills.

Yes, and He wills that those who believe shall be saved.

Its only after being quickened to life can one believe.

False statement not found in scripture.

Otherwise we remain natural men and dead to God.

Someone who has heard the gospel of God is inherently different than someone who has never heard of God.

Yet there is NONE who has not heard of God:

The heavens declare the glory of God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. - Romans 1:18-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans1:18-21&version=NKJV

Those who have never heard of the Law of Moses, who have never heard of Jesus Christ, can still believe in the One True God and be saved, by obeying the conscience which God gave to them, written on their hearts.

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. - Romans 2:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:12-16&version=NKJV

Thus, when a man in the mountains of India, or in deepest, darkest Africa, realizes that none of the gods he worships could have made the stars in the sky, or the creatures around him, or in fact himself, despite never hearing the gospel of the grace of God, he realizes that he wants to worship the one who DID make all that he sees, and seeks to obey the law written on his heart, and so he will be judged accordingly on the day of judgement, for:

. . . For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:48b http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:48&version=NKJV

Someone who has never heard of God, let alone heard of the gospel of God, is still without excuse, because since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, therefore they are ABLE to respond to God.

Now, with that all said, YOU, Beloved57, with your doctrine, try to give those who reject God an excuse for why they reject Him, when Scripture clearly says they are without excuse. The excuse you try to give them is "I was not loved enough by my Creator to even be given the opportunity to love Him, because He had damned me to Hell before I was even born, and there was nothing I could do to change that, even if I had wanted to, because He made me a vessel fit for destruction. He never loved me, therefore I have an excuse for my actions, because I had no other choice but to do those things that God hates as part of His sovereign will."
 

beloved57

Well-known member
God's sovereign will is that those who believe shall be saved, and given new life.

Not the reverse.



Yes, and He wills that those who believe shall be saved.



False statement not found in scripture.



Someone who has heard the gospel of God is inherently different than someone who has never heard of God.

Yet there is NONE who has not heard of God:

The heavens declare the glory of God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. - Romans 1:18-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans1:18-21&version=NKJV

Those who have never heard of the Law of Moses, who have never heard of Jesus Christ, can still believe in the One True God and be saved, by obeying the conscience which God gave to them, written on their hearts.

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them )in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. - Romans 2:12-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans2:12-16&version=NKJV

Thus, when a man in the mountains of India, or in deepest, darkest Africa, realizes that none of the gods he worships could have made the stars in the sky, or the creatures around him, or in fact himself, despite never hearing the gospel of the grace of God, he realizes that he wants to worship the one who DID make all that he sees, and seeks to obey the law written on his heart, and so he will be judged accordingly on the day of judgement, for:

. . . For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:48b http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:48&version=NKJV

Someone who has never heard of God, let alone heard of the gospel of God, is still without excuse, because since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, therefore they are ABLE to respond to God.

Now, with that all said, YOU, Beloved57, with your doctrine, try to give those who reject God an excuse for why they reject Him, when Scripture clearly says they are without excuse. The excuse you try to give them is "I was not loved enough by my Creator to even be given the opportunity to love Him, because He had damned me to Hell before I was even born, and there was nothing I could do to change that, even if I had wanted to, because He made me a vessel fit for destruction. He never loved me, therefore I have an excuse for my actions, because I had no other choice but to do those things that God hates as part of His sovereign will."
You must be saved to believe, God gives faith to believe when He saves you, otherwise the natural man doesnt seek God, nor understands God, hes lost.
 

JudgeRightly

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You must be saved to believe,

Wrong.

God gives faith to believe when He saves you,

Wrong.

otherwise the natural man doesn't seek God,

God has drawn ALL men to Himself. He made the first move. Now it's man's turn to respond to that drawing, by accepting it and believing, or rejecting it.

nor understands God, hes lost.

Even believers don't fully understand God. Thank Him that understanding Him is NEVER a requirement for starting a relationship with Him.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Wrong.



Wrong.



God has drawn ALL men to Himself. He made the first move. Now it's man's turn to respond to that drawing, by accepting it and believing, or rejecting it.



Even believers don't fully understand God. Thank Him that understanding Him is NEVER a requirement for starting a relationship with Him.
God hasnt drawn all men to Himself, because all men dont believe in Christ. Drawing a person to Christ is regnerating them and giving them faith in Christ to follow Him. Now He has drawn all races of men to Christ, but Im sure thats not what you mean is it?

If one isnt born again anew they remain as one that doesnt seek God and doesnt understand God, no change has taken place.
 

JudgeRightly

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God hasnt drawn all men to Himself,

So you're calling Christ a liar?

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV

Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. - 1 Corinthians 15:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians15:15&version=NKJV

You're DANGEROUSLY close to uttering heresy, B57!

because all men dont believe in Christ.

Non-sequitur. It doesn't follow logically.

Just because God draws all men DOES NOT MEAN that all will without fail heed that drawing.

Drawing a person to Christ is regnerating them

Even if I were to grant you that, it wouldn't change the fact that people still resist God after He draws them.

and giving them faith in Christ to follow Him.

Chapter verse.

Now He has drawn all races of men to Christ, but Im sure thats not what you mean is it?

Straw man.

Here is what Christ said:

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV

If one isnt born again anew

Which was never an option to begin with, according to you.

they remain as one that doesnt seek God

Yes, that's my position, that most DO remain as one who doesn't seek God, DESPITE being called.

and doesnt understand God,

Which was never mentioned, by the way.

It's the THINGS OF GOD, you dunce. At least be consistent within your own beliefs.

no change has taken place.

There's a DRASTIC change when someone who has never heard of God or Moses or Jesus, hears the Gospel of Grace for the first time! Or do you also think that when a man asks a woman to marry him, and she says "I do" (or even "I'm sorry, but no", for that matter), that she isn't inherently a changed woman simply by His asking, let alone her assent?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
So you're calling Christ a liar?

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV

Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. - 1 Corinthians 15:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians15:15&version=NKJV

You're DANGEROUSLY close to uttering heresy, B57!



Non-sequitur. It doesn't follow logically.

Just because God draws all men DOES NOT MEAN that all will without fail heed that drawing.



Even if I were to grant you that, it wouldn't change the fact that people still resist God after He draws them.



Chapter verse.



Straw man.

Here is what Christ said:

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV



Which was never an option to begin with, according to you.



Yes, that's my position, that most DO remain as one who doesn't seek God, DESPITE being called.



Which was never mentioned, by the way.

It's the THINGS OF GOD, you dunce. At least be consistent within your own beliefs.



There's a DRASTIC change when someone who has never heard of God or Moses or Jesus, hears the Gospel of Grace for the first time! Or do you also think that when a man asks a woman to marry him, and she says "I do" (or even "I'm sorry, but no", for that matter), that she isn't inherently a changed woman simply by His asking, let alone her assent?
The natural man cannot believe in Christ, he has no desire for God or Christ Rom 3:11 so a person must be born again to believe in Christ, and thats what drawing is, the New Birth, and everyone without exception is or will be born again, Christ never said He would draw all without exception to Him.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
The natural man cannot believe in Christ, he has no desire for God or Christ Rom 3:11 so a person must be born again to believe in Christ, and thats what drawing is, the New Birth, and everyone without exception is or will be born again, Christ never said He would draw all without exception to Him.
Were not all the apostles and disciples "natural men" when they believed?
If they had already been reborn, what did they need Jesus for?
 

JudgeRightly

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The natural man cannot believe in Christ,

Repeating yourself will not magically make what you say come true.

he has no desire for God or Christ Rom 3:11

Yes, if left to himself, no man would ever desire God.

But God DIDN'T leave man to himself.

so a person must be born again to believe in Christ,

False statement NOT FOUND in scripture.

And "born again" has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.

We are a NEW CREATURE, not an old one made clean.

and thats what drawing is, the New Birth,

False statement not found in scripture.

and everyone without exception is or will be born again,

Straw man.

Christ never said He would draw all without exception to Him

I'm going to believe what Christ said, not what you think He meant.

[COLOR]And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”[/COLOR] - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Repeating yourself will not magically make what you say come true.



Yes, if left to himself, no man would ever desire God.

But God DIDN'T leave man to himself.



False statement NOT FOUND in scripture.

And "born again" has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.

We are a NEW CREATURE, not an old one made clean.



False statement not found in scripture.



Straw man.



I'm going to believe what Christ said, not what you think He meant.

[COLOR]And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”[/COLOR] - John 12:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:32&version=NKJV
It is unfortunate so many resist the "drawing".
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Were not all the apostles and disciples "natural men" when they believed?
If they had already been reborn, what did they need Jesus for?
No they were spiritual men when they believed, if they would have been natural men only, they could not have believed. Havent you ever read that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, here look 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

Hoping

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No they were spiritual men when they believed, if they would have been natural men only, they could not have believed. Havent you ever read that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, here look 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If you were correct, the Spiritually walking Peter committed sins while in the Spirit.
That doesn't happen.
How can light bring forth darkness?
It can't.
I agree the natural man doesn't receive the things of God, but he can take what the Lord provided to allow us to walk Spiritually.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Thats false, how can one resist being born again, or being raised from the dead by Gods power. Could Lazarus had resisted Christ raising him from the dead ?
They make the choice of whether or not to obey God.
If heaven, salvation, righteousness, soberness, charity, subjection to God, turning from sin, or walking in the Spirit don't appeal to a man, he won't go to that which "drew" me.
There is no salvation for those who do not submit to God.

What drew you to God?
 

beloved57

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They make the choice of whether or not to obey God.
If heaven, salvation, righteousness, soberness, charity, subjection to God, turning from sin, or walking in the Spirit don't appeal to a man, he won't go to that which "drew" me.
There is no salvation for those who do not submit to God.

What drew you to God?
So dead lazarus had a choice on whether he would obey Jesus Christ in being raised from the dead ? Gotcha. I guess the ones in the last day have a choice to on whether or not to obey Jesus voice Jn 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
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