Elohiym & the Trinity

[CRASH]

They are equal.

 

[godrulz]

one problem...........God describes Himself as ONE

God is a compound unity. He is not a solitary one. The one eternal essence of God has 3 personal distinctions who are co-equal, co-eternal, co-essential. The Father is the one God; the Son is God; the Spirit is God. There are not 3 gods. God is not divided into 1/3s. The Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Spirit; the Spirit is not the Father. Do not confuse 'persons' with substance/essence/nature.

 

[godrulz]

God is an unlimited compound unity (echad), not a trinity. Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. They are ONE, not THREE.

Show me using the Bible where I have to agree with the Trinity doctrine to be saved.

Also, tell me: Do you still sin, Freak? Ever? Our faith is built on certain truths that we ought to defend at all costs, and one of those truths is that whoever sins is a servant of sin.

The Father, Son, Spirit is God. Who else is a god to make up your 'unlimited' compound unity? God has revealed Himself as one God with THREE personal distinctions (vs your 'unlimited').

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16197

My original, unsuccessful thread to understand El's views...

 

[godrulz]

I understand your position, I just do not think that the three are equal. If the Father gave all power to Christ then he is greater. I do not say this to take away from our Lord's glory, but to glorify his father as he did.

keypurr does not understand the incarnation/kenosis. He is essentially Arian in his views.

 

[keypurr]

They are equal.

Prove it with scripture. The Trinity doctrine has been so burried in tradition that not to many people really understand it, they just accept it. Christ was, and is in subjection to his father. I do not see them as one being, but two. Paul in his letters always refered to God the Father and his son our Lord,JesusChrist. I see no reason to think differently than Paul.

 

[keypurr]

keypurr does not understand the incarnation/kenosis. He is essentially Arian in his views.

I guess there is no hope for me friend. It's been a couple of years now and you haven't changed me yet. I still think your a nice person though. God bless

 

[godrulz]

Prove it with scripture. The Trinity doctrine has been so burried in tradition that not to many people really understand it, they just accept it. Christ was, and is in subjection to his father. I do not see them as one being, but two. Paul in his letters always refered to God the Father and his son our Lord,JesusChrist. I see no reason to think differently than Paul.

Paul was trinitarian, affirming the Deity of Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. Using verses that show Jesus is the God-Man during a limited time on earth does not negate His essential equality with the Father in His preexistence.

Son of God implies equality with the Father by nature.

Jn. 1:1, 14 properly translated and interpreted refutes your views.

 

[elohiym]

The Father, Son, Spirit is God. Who else is a god to make up your 'unlimited' compound unity? God has revealed Himself as one God with THREE personal distinctions (vs your 'unlimited').

Do you believe that God is limited to three presonal distinctions only?

My original, unsuccessful thread to understand El's views...

Thanks for posting that link. I'll ask the the moderator to delete one of them, since this thread is redundant.

 

[godrulz]

I guess there is no hope for me friend. It's been a couple of years now and you haven't changed me yet. I still think your a nice person though. God bless

Of course we are both nice people, but love demands that we know and love God as He has revealed Himself in truth. There is always hope for those who seek God diligently. My main concern is the Deity of Christ. I would not stumble over the Trinity until you fully understand who Jesus is.

 

[godrulz]

Do you believe that God is limited to three presonal distinctions only?

Thanks for posting that link. I'll ask the the moderator to delete one of them, since this thread is redundant.

There are many redundant threads. Dozens of threads talk about Calvinism, Mormonism, Open Theism, etc. We should not delete threads that provide unique posts from various posters. I would support merging the threads vs deleting them. I do not think anyone will rehash the old one anyway, so we can leave it dormant.

There are goofy threads attacking me personally and my beliefs stating that I am unsaved, evil, demonic, etc. I support freedom of speech and trust people will consider the source and judge on reality, not personal attacks. Truth does not run from error. Iron sharpens iron.

I do not wish to marginalize or attack you personally. I do wish to understand your views so I can change mine or refute yours. I am here to learn as well as persuade people to truth that sets us free.

God has revealed Himself as one God with 3 personal distinctions: Father, Son, Spirit.

Verses about the '7 spirits of God' (better translated 7-fold spirit) or sons of God (adoption vs unique Son of God by nature/divine), etc. do not show that the Godhead is more than three. I am not aware of any other 'person' who is Deity by nature, yet equal/distinct from Father, Son, Spirit. Am I missing something? Who is/are the other members of the one Godhead (uncreated Creator). He says He knows no others in Isaiah. Have Christians missed your unique idea (whatever it is) for 2000 years? Did Jesus talk about anyone else besides the Father and the Spirit, the other Comforter?

Please put some clothes on

 

[elohiym]

God has revealed Himself as one God with 3 personal distinctions: Father, Son, Spirit.

Verses about the '7 spirits of God' (better translated 7-fold spirit)....

Seven fold spirit, meaning seven part spirit, right? Not three part spirit, right?

Again, godrulz, do you believe that God is limited to three presonal distinctions only? (I'll keep asking until you answer.)

Have Christians missed your unique idea (whatever it is) for 2000 years?

No. I have previously shown you thatTertullian states himself that the majority of believers rejected what he, you, and Freak call the Trinity, because they were monotheists that did not want to correct God's description of Himelf as Echad (unity).

Also, I have previously shown you how Theophilus (Bishop of Antioch) did not describe the trinity as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because that Trinity Doctrine did not even exist in the early church.

Furthermore, I have shown you how 1 John 5:7 should end with the word record because the rest of verse 7 and all of verse 8 are not found in any ancient Greek manuscripts. They were added by hetertics who were obsessed with a doctrine they wanted desperately to prove, like you.

Did Jesus talk about anyone else besides the Father and the Spirit, the other Comforter?

Didn't you just mention the seven-fold spirit of God in Revelation. That is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, is it not?

Did Jesus talk about a doctrine called Trinity, ever? Did Jesus ever limit God to three personal distinctions? Did Jesus except Peter's answer when he was asked "who do you say I am," even though Peter did not understand or believe what you call the Trinity?

Please put some clothes on

If you don't like the midget wrestler, then stop acting like a mental midget.

 

[Freak]

God is an unlimited compound unity (echad), not a trinity.

:down: Sad, that you outright reject the Holy Trinity. You are therefore an enemy of Him whom is triune in nature.

Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. They are ONE, not THREE.

God is one who has revealed Himself in three persons.

Show me using the Bible where I have to agree with the Trinity doctrine to be saved.

Whoever said you must believe in the triune nature of God to be saved?? Please show me where?

I did say, you cannot worship the one & true God by denying His triune nature for we must worship Him, as Jesus pointed out in John 4, in "spirit and truth."

Truth matters!!!

Also, tell me: Do you still sin, Freak?

Do I sin? One who is identified with the Son the Lord Jesus? NO! My flesh whom I do not identify with sins but my identification is not in the flesh.

Ever?

I did before being identified by Jesus Christ.

Our faith is built on certain truths that we ought to defend at all costs, and one of those truths is that whoever sins is a servant of sin.

Our faith is built on the nature of God, silly. Who is the God that redeems humanity. YOU have a false god, a god that you have created in thin air! You have been exposed as a false teacher!

 

[Freak]

Did Jesus talk about a doctrine called Trinity, ever?.

YES! God's Word was written (via man) by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The triune nature is seen throughout Scripture. Take a glance at the Baptism of Jesus and you will see three distinct persons of the Godhead at work.

You are a false teacher by denying the Trinity! :down:

 

[elohiym]

God is one who has revealed Himself in three persons.

That's what I believe, you idiot. I don't call that trinity, I call it unity. You are being a drama queen, because you are obsessed with a word (trinity), rather than the truth that underlies the word (unity).

Whoever said you must believe in the triune nature of God to be saved?? Please show me where?

You just did in this post, moron. You said...

...you outright reject the Holy Trinity. You are therefore an enemy of Him whom is triune in nature.

And then you said it again...

YOU have a false god, a god that you have created in thin air! You have been exposed as a false teacher!

I did say, you cannot worship the one & true God by denying His triune nature for we must worship Him, as Jesus pointed out in John 4, in "spirit and truth."

Then you make it a salvational issue, and you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Truth matters!!!

You're not interested in the truth. You are interested in supporting Catholic doctrine that the majority of the early church rejected. You are a cultist, and a fool.

Do I sin? One who is identified with the Son the Lord Jesus? NO! My flesh whom I do not identify with sins but my identification is not in the flesh. I did before being identified by Jesus Christ.

How does your felsh sin? Give us an example. Does your flesh ever break one of the ten commandments? You can answer those questions on the Freak & Sin thread.

And since you claim to no longer sin, then you must agree that godrulz (who believes in the Trinity) has a false God and is a false teacher because he admits to wilfully sinning every once in a while, right? Let's see where your priorities are.

Our faith is built on the nature of God, silly. Who is the God that redeems humanity.

Listen, you pervert, I believe that Jesus is the son of God, the Christ. YOU are adding to the word of God, and making conditions for salvation. :down:

 

[elohiym]

Did Jesus talk about a doctrine called Trinity, ever?

YES! God's Word was written (via man) by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The triune nature is seen throughout Scripture. Take a glance at the Baptism of Jesus and you will see three distinct persons of the Godhead at work.

First, you are a liar, because Jesus never talked about "a doctrine called Trinity." That's not in the Bible, but you don't seem to care, probably because you are in sin bondage and receiving strong delussion from God.

Second, it is a lie to call ONE spirit "three distinct persons." Are you claiming the Father is not spirit (God is a spirit)? Are you claiming that the holy spirit (God) didn't incarnate in a man named Jesus? Are you claiming the Holy Spirit is a distinct person NOT the same as the spirit that is the Father and the spirit that is the son?

God the Father IS the Holy Spirit. Christ Jesus IS the Holy Spirit incarnate. That makes ONE spirit being referred to as Father and Son, not "three distinct person." :doh:

 

[godrulz]

Seven fold spirit, meaning seven part spirit, right? Not three part spirit, right?

Again, godrulz, do you believe that God is limited to three presonal distinctions only? (I'll keep asking until you answer.)

No. I have previously shown you thatTertullian states himself that the majority of believers rejected what he, you, and Freak call the Trinity, because they were monotheists that did not want to correct God's description of Himelf as Echad (unity).

Also, I have previously shown you how Theophilus (Bishop of Antioch) did not describe the trinity as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because that Trinity Doctrine did not even exist in the early church.

Furthermore, I have shown you how 1 John 5:7 should end with the word record because the rest of verse 7 and all of verse 8 are not found in any ancient Greek manuscripts. They were added by hetertics who were obsessed with a doctrine they wanted desperately to prove, like you.
Didn't you just mention the seven-fold spirit of God in Revelation. That is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, is it not?

Did Jesus talk about a doctrine called Trinity, ever? Did Jesus ever limit God to three personal distinctions? Did Jesus except Peter's answer when he was asked "who do you say I am," even though Peter did not understand or believe what you call the Trinity?

If you don't like the midget wrestler, then stop acting like a mental midget.

7-fold= 7 aspects of the one Holy Spirit...wind, fire, comforter...for example...this one verse (not easy to interpret perhaps) does not negate the dozens of other explicit verses that show 3-1 and 1-3.

God has revealed Himself as triune (3 personal distinctions in one uncreated spirit nature). I have answered this explicitly and repeatedly so quit badgering unless you are making a counter-point.

The triune understanding of God is strictly monotheistic. You do not know your history of doctrinal formation in the early church and Fathers. Unless you quote in context and consider all the other Fathers that did say things about the Trinity (including Tertullian), you will not have credibility.

I do not rely on I Jn. 5 and agree with some of the textual concerns. Jesus talked about Himself, the Father, and the Spirit. If you think He talked about other personal distinctions within the one nature of God, then show me where He interacts with this person (start with a name or title).

The triune understanding of God was hinted at in the OT. It is a progressive revelation. It took time for people to understand that the Messiah was Deity/Son of God, that the Holy Spirit was another Comforter sent after Jesus, that the Father was not a solitary deity, etc.

 

[elohiym]

7-fold= 7 aspects of the one Holy Spirit...wind, fire, comforter...for example...this one verse (not easy to interpret perhaps) does not negate the dozens of other explicit verses that show 3-1 and 1-3.

No it does not negate that God is the Father, son, and holy spirit, but is suggests that God is an unlimited compound unity...wind, fire, comforter, father, son, judge, executioner of those that refuse to repent, for example.

You acknowledge that the verse is not easy to interpret, yet you want me to ignore it in favor of limiting God to a triune existence. You want me to ignore God's own words on the matter.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:​

The word echad cannot be translated to mean trinity. Jesus never in the scriptures states that God is three...NEVER!

The triune understanding of God is strictly monotheistic.

:think: Triune.....monotheistic. :nono:

You are a polytheist, godrulz. Face it. And you think your false god gives you a license to sin.

You do not know your history of doctrinal formation in the early church and Fathers. Unless you quote in context and consider all the other Fathers that did say things about the Trinity (including Tertullian), you will not have credibility.

Apparently I know this subject better than you. I have already proved this to you in the past, and I showed you from early church writings that Tertullian states that the majority of the church rejected what he called the trinity, and that the Bishop of Antioch did not even mean what you mean when he used the word trinity. THERE ARE NO EARLIER APPEARANCES OF THE WORD TRINITY in the early church writings, so unless YOU can show us some proof, why don't you stop blowing smoke.

I do not rely on I Jn. 5 and agree with some of the textual concerns.

I'm glad you acknowledge that 1 John 5 has been altered, but I am disappointed that you miss the significance. If the trinity was actually shown in the scriptures without ambiguity, why would anyone need to alter the word of God to prove the trinity?

Jesus talked about Himself, the Father, and the Spirit. If you think He talked about other personal distinctions within the one nature of God, then show me where He interacts with this person (start with a name or title).

Here's one:

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Revelation 3:1.​

So Jesus (that's God) is claiming that he has "the seven spirits of God." So God is an unlimited compound unity, as I believe. He cannot be limited to a trinity based on Revelation 3:1 alone.

The triune understanding of God was hinted at in the OT. It is a progressive revelation. It took time for people to understand that the Messiah was Deity/Son of God, that the Holy Spirit was another Comforter sent after Jesus, that the Father was not a solitary deity, etc.

Look, I showed you what God said about himself. He said that he is ONE, not three.

 

[elohiym]

...the Father was not a solitary deity

You are a polytheist, godrulz.

 

[Freak]

First, you are a liar, because Jesus never talked about "a doctrine called Trinity." That's not in the Bible,

The word, "incarnation" isn't a word in the Bible either but we believe in the incarnation because it's taught in Scripture. The Scriptures clearly teach God is triune in nature. You reject it because your false god has YOU in bondage.

Second, it is a lie to call ONE spirit "three distinct persons." Are you claiming the Father is not spirit (God is a spirit)? Are you claiming that the holy spirit (God) didn't incarnate in a man named Jesus? Are you claiming the Holy Spirit is a distinct person NOT the same as the spirit that is the Father and the spirit that is the son?

The Father didn't shed blood on the cross, Jesus did.

Jesus didn't refer to Himself as the Holy Spirit.

There is distinctions within the Godhead. Clearly, this is seen throughout the New Testament.

There is ONE God whom has revealed Himself in three persons, co-eternal, co-equal.

God the Father IS the Holy Spirit. Christ Jesus IS the Holy Spirit incarnate. That makes ONE spirit being referred to as Father and Son, not "three distinct person."

:dizzy:

 

[Freak]

Listen, you pervert, I believe that Jesus is the son of God, the Christ. YOU are adding to the word of God, and making conditions for salvation.

:loser: You're a heretic like the Mormons. Name one Christian denomination or organization that rejects the use of the word Trinity to describe the nature of God? You can't because Christians world-wide, understand from Scripture that our God is triune in nature. You fail to understand this fundamental truth to your own demise. You are in gross error!!