Elohiym & the Trinity

[Freak]

He cannot be limited to a trinity based on Revelation 3:1 alone.
Look, I showed you what God said about himself. He said that he is ONE, not three.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

We see that God is one and yet triune-One God who has revealed Himself in three persons-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

You rejecting the Trinity places you in the kingdom of the cults and as such will be branded as one.

 

[godrulz]

First, you are a liar, because Jesus never talked about "a doctrine called Trinity." That's not in the Bible, but you don't seem to care, probably because you are in sin bondage and receiving strong delussion from God.

Second, it is a lie to call ONE spirit "three distinct persons." Are you claiming the Father is not spirit (God is a spirit)? Are you claiming that the holy spirit (God) didn't incarnate in a man named Jesus? Are you claiming the Holy Spirit is a distinct person NOT the same as the spirit that is the Father and the spirit that is the son?

God the Father IS the Holy Spirit. Christ Jesus IS the Holy Spirit incarnate. That makes ONE spirit being referred to as Father and Son, not "three distinct person." :doh:

The one God's essential nature, substance, essence is immaterial spirit as opposed to flesh and blood or matter. God is spirit (Jn. 4:24). You are making a rookie exegetical mistake to confuse this use of spirit (or spirit in reference to tripartite man: spirit, soul, body= Thess.) with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit shares the same essence as the Father and Son without being the person of the Father/Son. The Holy Spirit did not incarnate nor did the Father. The Word/Jesus/Son became flesh (Jn. 1:1, 14). It never says the Father or the Holy Spirit becomes flesh.

Saying the Father (who is spirit by nature) is the person of the Holy Spirit is sheer Sabellianism/modalism. You are also making the rookie mistake of confusing God's nature/essence/substance with personal distinctions. He is one eternal, uncreated spirit, but within this one nature are 3 personal distinctions. The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are shown to have will, intellect, emotions. The Son prayed to the Father. The Spirit came at the baptism of Jesus while the Father spoke from heaven.

I still do not get El's views on the Godhead. They seem to be a mix of heresies and unique to himself. What church does he attend? Is there a book or author who articulates his views? A website? Armstrongism? Christadelphian? I dunno?

 

[godrulz]

No it does not negate that God is the Father, son, and holy spirit, but is suggests that God is an unlimited compound unity...wind, fire, comforter, father, son, judge, executioner of those that refuse to repent, for example.

You acknowledge that the verse is not easy to interpret, yet you want me to ignore it in favor of limiting God to a triune existence. You want me to ignore God's own words on the matter.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:​

The word echad cannot be translated to mean trinity. Jesus never in the scriptures states that God is three...NEVER!


:think: Triune.....monotheistic. :nono:

You are a polytheist, godrulz. Face it. And you think your false god gives you a license to sin.



Apparently I know this subject better than you. I have already proved this to you in the past, and I showed you from early church writings that Tertullian states that the majority of the church rejected what he called the trinity, and that the Bishop of Antioch did not even mean what you mean when he used the word trinity. THERE ARE NO EARLIER APPEARANCES OF THE WORD TRINITY in the early church writings, so unless YOU can show us some proof, why don't you stop blowing smoke.



I'm glad you acknowledge that 1 John 5 has been altered, but I am disappointed that you miss the significance. If the trinity was actually shown in the scriptures without ambiguity, why would anyone need to alter the word of God to prove the trinity?

Here's one:

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Revelation 3:1.​

So Jesus (that's God) is claiming that he has "the seven spirits of God." So God is an unlimited compound unity, as I believe. He cannot be limited to a trinity based on Revelation 3:1 alone.


Look, I showed you what God said about himself. He said that he is ONE, not three.

Mormons are polytheists with 3 separate gods. The Christian, biblical triune understanding of God is monotheistic. There are not 3 gods. There is one uncreated essence of God.

Deut. 6:4 uses 'one' as a compound unity (one army, one family, one cluster of grapes, etc.). It is not a solitary one ('yochid').

God is one in one sense (nature), but 3 in another sense (personal distinction).

The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There is one God, not 3 gods.

The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Spirit. The Spirit is not the Father.


The 7 spirits of God or 7-fold spirit does not contradict the explicit revelation elsewhere of Father, Son , Spirit in the Godhead. Your exegesis is sloppy and has a better understanding than making God an unlimited Godhead (if anything, argue for 7 vs 3).

 

[godrulz]

You are a polytheist, godrulz.

God is not a solitary one, but a compound unity (triune vs triplex=Mormon). There is only one true God, not 3 gods. You do not understand the biblical, historical, orthodox triune nature of the one God.

 

[godrulz]

:loser: You're a heretic like the Mormons. Name one Christian denomination or organization that rejects the use of the word Trinity to describe the nature of God? You can't because Christians world-wide, understand from Scripture that our God is triune in nature. You fail to understand this fundamental truth to your own demise. You are in gross error!!

UPC= United Pentecostal Church

Some apostolic churches

Some churches of God


These affirm the Deity of Christ, but are modalists/Sabellians/Jesus only....Jesus is the one God who steps into 3 offices or modes at various times. It is heretical, but sufficient understanding to be considered Christian.

 

[Sozo]

You (elohiym) do not understand the biblical, historical, orthodox triune nature of the one God.

Neither do you, Freak, or anyone else.

 

[immivik]

when I look in a concordance to find the seven Spirits of God, I found that these references refer to angels or created beings who have been given responsibilities. I am unsure to what extent thier responsibilities go,but it is clear that they oversee the church body and they answer to God.
they are also described as standing before the throne of the Lamb, which implies a seperation of office.
I cant tell for sure what type of being these are but they are never referred to in any way which implies that they are equal with God Himself.

 

[godrulz]

Neither do you, Freak, or anyone else.

We do not understand it exhaustively, but what we do know from revelation is truth (one God= Father, Son, Spirit).

 

[godrulz]

when I look in a concordance to find the seven Spirits of God, I found that these references refer to angels or created beings who have been given responsibilities. I am unsure to what extent thier responsibilities go,but it is clear that they oversee the church body and they answer to God.
they are also described as standing before the throne of the Lamb, which implies a seperation of office.
I cant tell for sure what type of being these are but they are never referred to in any way which implies that they are equal with God Himself.

He should look at credible commentaries for possible interpretations. I have never heard it to be understood as more personal beings in the one Godhead nor does Scripture support this elsewhere. Proof texting leads to wrong doctrine.

 

[elohiym]

God is not a solitary one, but a compound unity (triune vs triplex=Mormon). There is only one true God, not 3 gods.

If you agree that God is a compund unity, then you should not object to my calling the Father and Son a unity through the Holy Spirit.

I believe that Jesus is the son of God, the Christ. I believe that God the Father and God the Son are one through the Holy Spirit, and that all believers receive the Holy Spirit and are one with the Godhead. There are not detailed description of the Godhead, that would allow us to proclaim "I understand it, and you're a heretic if you don't agree with me!"

You do not understand the biblical, historical, orthodox triune nature of the one God.

The Bible reveals the unity of God, not the separation and limitation of God as three. Trinity is not unity. :duh:

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

The historical understanding of the trinity is unknown except for a few references to a Trinity in the early church writings. First there is this reference from the writings of the Bishop of Antioche.

"In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom."

Theophilus to Autolycus, Theophilus, The Bishop of Antioch​

That quote proves that as early as AD 180-185 the word Trinity WAS NOT used to describe a doctrine like the one you and Freak profess. The Holy Trinity to the Bishop of Antioch meant God, His Word, and His Wisdom.

From around AD 197-220, we have Tertullian's writings, in which he states that the majority of believers rejected what you and Freak believe. So if the majority rejected it, then it was obviously still a new concept around AD 197.

This is conclusive historical evidence that the concept of the Trinity the you and Freak believe did not enter the church until between AD 185-197. And it was not part of the teachings of the Bishop of Antioche who had more knowledge of the matter you, Freak, or anyone on these forums.

Do you have anything earlier than that? Do YOU have any historical proof, or are you going to keep blowing smoke?

 

[Freak]

Neither do you, Freak, or anyone else.

Our understanding of whom God is, is paramount to our faith as this seperates us from false religions & cults. There is more essentials to our faith then believing the deity of Jesus Christ. We ought to be orthodox in our understanding of the Godhead and the nature of salvation.

elohiym has made some statements regarding the nature of God that ought to be explored as understanding some basics of the nature of God is important. Truth matters. He has a confused & warped understanding of the basics of the triune nature of God.

 

[Freak]

If you agree that God is a compund unity, then you should not object to my calling the Father and Son a unity through the Holy Spirit.

Through the Holy Spirit. What kind of theology is this? :nono:

This is conclusive historical evidence that the concept of the Trinity the you and Freak believe did not enter the church until between AD 185-197. Do you have anything earlier than that? Do YOU have any historical proof, or are you going to keep blowing smoke?

:vomit: You have no idea what you are getting into.

I noticed God being said to be: Three-in-One, one Deity in three Persons, three Persons in one substance, and the like by Tertullian (c.160-220 AD). He even devoted an entire book to defending the Trinity (Against Praxeas).

Not only did I prove you to be a fool but an ignorant one at that...

 

[Freak]

Furthermore, Justin Martyr spent time defending and promoting the triune aspect of God in his writings (c.100-165 AD), and this was before the Second Century.

 

[keypurr]

Paul was trinitarian, affirming the Deity of Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. Using verses that show Jesus is the God-Man during a limited time on earth does not negate His essential equality with the Father in His preexistence.

Son of God implies equality with the Father by nature.

Jn. 1:1, 14 properly translated and interpreted refutes your views.

Paul was NOT a trinitarian. The deity of Christ is not in question.
What is in question is equality of the son with the father. He came to do his father's will. He was SENT by a higher authority. Satan thought he was equal with the father and look what happened to him. He went back to HIS GOD and OUR GOD. In his father's house are many mansions. Notice the words "in my father's house".
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

Joh 5:36 But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, a servant is not greater than his lord; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 14:28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

 

[Freak]

Paul was NOT a trinitarian. The deity of Christ is not in question.
What is in question is equality of the son with the father.]

Oh Great! Another heretic. The Son is equal with the Father.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

 

[keypurr]

Oh Great! Another heretic. The Son is equal with the Father.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1Co 15:27 All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (DRB

There is no equality as long as Christ is in subjection to his Father.

 

[elohiym]

:vomit: You have no idea what you are getting into.

I noticed God being said to be: Three-in-One, one Deity in three Persons, three Persons in one substance, and the like by Tertullian (c.160-220 AD). He even devoted an entire book to defending the Trinity (Against Praxeas).

Not only did I prove you to be a fool but an ignorant one at that...

Freak, you're a demon possesed idiot. Here is what Tertullian said in his defense of the Trinity:

The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned,) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world's plurality of gods to the one only true God...​

That's what Tertullian said, which is what I claimed he said. So don't try and act like you have proven anything except that your doctor needs to reduce your medication dosage.

The Bishop of Antioch is earlier than Tertullian. Therefore you have not refuted my response to godrulz.

 

[Freak]

Freak, I'm a demon possesed idiot.

I know you are. Demons often speak out of their own as they did out of you.

Here is what Tertullian said in his defense of the Trinity

"20 the three Persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition,21 but in degree;22 not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect;23 yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

The Bishop of Antioch is earlier than Tertullian. Therefore you have not refuted my response to godrulz.

But Justin Martyr was!! You're laughable & a :dunce:

And this clearly proves your a liar and a heretic of the worse kind! My :dog: is brighter then YOU!

Perhaps, you can elighten us on a few things...

1. What do you believe the Trinity means as used by Christians world-wide?
2. Do you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal & co-eternal but with distinction (ex. the Holy Spirit did not shed blood on the cross)?

 

[godrulz]

Paul was NOT a trinitarian. The deity of Christ is not in question.
What is in question is equality of the son with the father. He came to do his father's will. He was SENT by a higher authority. Satan thought he was equal with the father and look what happened to him. He went back to HIS GOD and OUR GOD. In his father's house are many mansions. Notice the words "in my father's house".
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

Joh 5:36 But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, a servant is not greater than his lord; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 14:28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

We've been over this several times on other threads.

Your understanding of "Deity of Christ" is not the theological, historical use of the concept. You deny His true Deity by saying He is not equal with the Father. You use verses about His incarnational humanity to try to contradict other verses about His pre-existent Deity.

El: OT verses about the oneness of God and OT passages quoted in the NT do not contradict the other verses that show a plurality within the unity (compound unity). This is progressive revelation. Jesus tells us more about the person and work of the Holy Spirit than did OT prophets.

Your god family ideas sound like Herbert Armstrong's false teaching. Jesus is the unique Son of God from eternity in the Godhead. We are adopted sons of God, but we are not part of the eternal nature/spirit of God. He is uncreated; we are creatures. We can become Christ-like and enter relationship with God, but we are not gods nor part of the Godhead.

 

[elohiym]

I know you are. Demons often speak out of their own as they did out of you.

Freak, you are not a child of God, and you are going to hell if you do not repent. You have already admitted on this thread to be in bondage to sin, except you don't call it that because you blame your sins on the flesh and claim your identity is in Christ (while you sin). You're screwed.

"20 the three Persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition,21 but in degree;22 not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect;23 yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

But Justin Martyr was!! You're laughable & a :dunce:

You think Justin Martyr is credible? Do you agree with Justin that Christians are the true Israel? Justin claims, "CHRIST IS KING OF ISRAEL, AND CHRISTIANS ARE THE ISRAELITIC RACE." Does Justin Martyr reflect your beliefs, Freak?

And what are you quoting? I'd like to read what he is saying in context for myself, as I have read Martyr, and he refers to the same Trinity as the Bishop of Antioch, that of God, His Word, and His Wisdom. Also the "prophetic spirit" is used instead of Holy Spirit in places.

My point is that it is not a doctrine that matters if we accept the deity of Chirst. You have made it a condition of salvation, as I have previously shown. Even godrulz had to point out to you that it is not a salvational issue. You don't seem to care that I am a Christian who believes in the Son of God, who is free from sin; you just want to brand me a false teacher, even though I do not teach this subject; you just want to claim I worship a false God, even though I worship the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; you want to say I have a demon because I don't want to use the word "trinity."

You are one screwed up person. I pray God renews your heart and mind.

And this clearly proves your a liar and a heretic of the worse kind!

I am not a liar, and you have no evidence of a lie. If I mispoke, then show me where, and I will address it.

My :dog: is brighter then YOU!

I feel sorry for your dog. You beat him into submission, don't you?

Perhaps, you can elighten us on a few things...

1. What do you believe the Trinity means as used by Christians world-wide?

I have no idea, nor do I care. I am satified to know the son of God, Christ Jesus.

2. Do you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal & co-eternal but with distinction (ex. the Holy Spirit did not shed blood on the cross)?

Yes.