Creation vs. Evolution

[Hedshaker]

Why don't apes in zoos turn into men? Are you so blinded by what you have been told about evolution you are incapable of separating fact from fantasy?

What! You've only just spotted this

Lol, sorry, couldn't resist :drum:

 

[alwight]

Dear Alwight,

No, actually I do know enough about Darwinism and his blind 'evolutionism', and could care less. No, I don't buy it for one minute. If some of the apes adapted to be men to adapt to their environment, then why are the other ones in zoos looking out instead of being men, looking in at them. Why didn't they also 'adapt' into men. You make very little sense and you've got blinders on, the both of you, to see anything really clearly. I hardly need science lessons from either of you!

Ciao,

Michael

Hi Michael, clearly you have no interest or use at all of any natural explanation for life being as it is, so I won't try. In your world there is no room for such a thing because you have already pre-concluded all the explanations you'll ever need: "God-Did-It".

A shame really since there are so many interesting and amazing things involved with having such a reliable natural working explanation for the world around us that you will never understand. A world just waiting for you to actually use the brain that you think God gave you.

 

[Hedshaker]

Hi Michael, clearly you have no interest or use at all of any natural explanation for life being as it is, so I won't try. In your world there is no room for such a thing because you have already pre-concluded all the explanations you'll ever need: "God-Did-It".

A shame really since there are so many interesting and amazing things involved with having such a reliable natural working explanation for the world around us that you will never understand. A world just waiting for you to actually use the brain that you think God gave you.

You know, I often think along these lines as well. There's so much wonder and strangeness to be studied and discovered about life and nature just as it is. Why would anyone need supernatural add-ons? Beats me

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear All,

Is this where the atheists all congregate. So be it. I would rather believe in my 'friend in the sky' than any of your beliefs. You will ALL be sorry that you don't believe in my same 'friend.' I can't believe the things that come out of your heads/mouths. You are all so blind, it's unbelievable. I'd rather talk with Christians who, at least, have some semblance of what life on earth is about. You atheists can all sit there and take potshots at me all you want. It won't change your fate one bit and I would hate to be you in a heartbeat.

I will not condemn you. I will leave that up to my 'friend in the sky' if it be the case. I can't believe you all exist and think the way you do, but whatever. I suppose there's a looney tune out there for every 10,000 believers, there is one non-believer. I really feel sorry for you ALL. Que lastima!

MichaelCadry

 

[Lordkalvan]

Dear All,

Is this where the atheists all congregate. So be it. I would rather believe in my 'friend in the sky' than any of your beliefs. You will ALL be sorry that you don't believe in my same 'friend.' I can't believe the things that come out of your heads/mouths. You are all so blind, it's unbelievable. I'd rather talk with Christians who, at least, have some semblance of what life on earth is about. You atheists can all sit there and take potshots at me all you want. It won't change your fate one bit and I would hate to be you in a heartbeat.

I will not condemn you. I will leave that up to my 'friend in the sky' if it be the case. I can't believe you all exist and think the way you do, but whatever. I suppose there's a looney tune out there for every 10,000 believers, there is one non-believer. I really feel sorry for you ALL. Que lastima!

MichaelCadry

Best way to avoid answering uncomfortable questions, I guess...

 

[alwight]

I will not condemn you. I will leave that up to my 'friend in the sky' if it be the case. I can't believe you all exist and think the way you do, but whatever. I suppose there's a looney tune out there for every 10,000 believers, there is one non-believer. I really feel sorry for you ALL. Que lastima!

MichaelCadry

Some of us find your wilful ignorance hard to believe Michael, do you intend to spend eternity in a similar blissfully unaware state of mind?

 

[gcthomas]

I suppose there's a looney tune out there for every 10,000 believers, there is one non-believer.

One in ten thousand, huh?

Hmm. Reality bites again. :rotfl:

In the world, seventy percent are NOT Christians, while over a billion don't subscribe to any religious group.

Most of the world doesn't accept the Bible as remotely true. YOU are in a real minority as a Christian. I am a member of that big non-Christian majority.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear gcthomas,

You know I mean there are more people that believe in GOD than those who are atheists. By far more. You know dang well that's what I meant, but you like to ignore those types of things.

I say no changes in life forms happen without God's intervention and approval. Even three-handed or two-headed babies just to prove what He can do. I also would like to say that I know that I was spoken to by the Lord God, have had more than 3 angel visits, and a number of visits by the Holy Spirit and have had a number of visions. Nothing any of you can do will change that fact. So I don't need proof even though you do. So what are you going to do? You aren't going to change your mind, most likely. And certainly you are aware of how things work for nonbelievers of God and Jesus. They don't get into Heaven, is what happens.

God gave us the power of choice so that we are not like robots. You have your choice not to believe in Him. Whatever. Go for it. It's free choice. Have at it. Oh, by the way, as far as PROOF, I'm saying that two witnesses will die and after three and one half days, come back to life and be risen to heaven, and that others will see it, and people shall hear that, in the place where they did rise again, there shall be an earthquake greater than any earthquake than has been on earth since man has been on earth. When that happens, you can know that my Friend in the Sky is really God. And if the earthquake obliterates all chance of that news being broadcast to other cities so they become aware of it, YOU'LL HAVE your PROOF ALSO, even if you never hear about it. It'd be just what you deserve. I hope that instead you do hear of it though and then decide to fall on your knees and pray to God to be forgiven and accept Jesus as your Savior and make it to Heaven after all. It is written, "No man comes to the Father except by Me (Jesus)."

God Be With Us All,

MichaelCadry

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear noguru,

No, I'm not a YEC. If you want to know who I am, read my posts. You are a Christian and so am I. I believe in God creating, and not aborting, life. Nevertheless, He gave us Free Will and Free Choice. We will also get Free Recompense for aborting life. There's tons of people who would love to have a baby but cannot.

God's Blessings Upon You,

MichaelC

 

[gcthomas]

MC, you said at that only one in ten thousand didn't believe in God, whereas it is one in five who don't believe in any, and many more who believe in gods (plural and singular) that don't match your conception in any significant way.

Have you backed away from the one in ten thousand figure now? I can meet a group of people here and discuss religion freely because the chances of having a strong believer in at group are very low. There are not many around now here. You surround yourself with fervent believers until you believe that is all there are. And, like much of what you believe, that isn't true.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear gcthomas,

I said one in ten thousand were atheists. I just picked an assessment or number out of the air. Whatever that amount be, fine, whatever you say. That is not the matter. Are you trying to tell me that one in five are atheists? That's even worse than I thought. Sorry for them. I know that there are many, many people who believe in God and Jesus. I just think that you atheists all like to hang out here on my thread. You'll not escape Him no matter whose thread you post on. You just like the odds being five to two or three? That includes freelight, and noguru helping out sometimes on my side. Whatever.

Well, all I have to say is what I wrote in my prior post. Hope you caught it.

In Christ's Love,

MichaelCadry

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear gcthomas,

You act like you are from some large majority of people. The Christians, Moslems, Jews and Catholics, among others, believe in God and some Jesus. You are one of the few left who don't believe in God. Don't hide amongst the wolves.

Baaah!!

MichaelC

 

[gcthomas]

Dear gcthomas,

You act like you are from some large majority of people. The Christians, Moslems, Jews and Catholics, among others, believe in God and some Jesus. You are one of the few left who don't believe in God. Don't hide amongst the wolves.

Baaah!!

MichaelC

The Hindus and traditional Chinese don't believe in anything like your God. The Buddhists are non-theistic. Then there are all the atheists in Texas and elsewhere who only claim to be Christian because they don't want to be socially ostracised, miss out on promotions, election to office etc. Muslims can get killed or executed in many countries if they reveal their disbelief. There are atheists who claim to be agnostic to avoid arguments. And the fully 'out' atheists.

So, monotheists make up about half of the world population. Polytheists one quarter. The rest agnostics/atheists.

I'm in the half that thinks your God doesn't exist, and in the quarter that disbelieves in other gods too.

You say "one of the few left", but the proportion of people claiming to be atheists in the US and elsewhere is on the rise, markedly in recent years. Christianity is popular still, but on the retreat in many places.

 

[freelight]

Evolution...............

Evolution...............

Richard Dawkins vs. Wendy Wright

I think Dawkins holds his own here, where Wright keeps falling back on 'religious belief', 'moral implications' and 'intelligent design' to back the 'creationist' view. I think 'theistic evolution' would be the middle ground here.




pj

 

[Hedshaker]

I think Dawkins holds his own here, where Wright keeps falling back on 'religious belief', 'moral implications' and 'intelligent design' to back the 'creationist' view. I think 'theistic evolution' would be the middle ground here.
pj

That video wouldn't play here for me so I found it on youtube. I thought Dawkins by far more than held his own, when he was allowed to get a word in. That woman doggedly, and painfully, refused to listen to reason.

'Theistic evolution' is made up of people honest enough to see the evidence for evolution (kudos for that), while having cherished, unmovable faith based theistic beliefs. So to avoid cognitive dissonance, they find a way to amalgamate the two. This is their right but hardly the middle ground IMO.

1) Evolution occurred - factual, based on masses of scientific evidence. Just the facts, just the evidence, nothing added.


2) God did it that way - religion based on faith but lacking scientific evidence.

Science is not just the middle but all the ground. Faith is an add on to the science, IMO.

 

[noguru]

Wendy Wright; "People are using their critical factories." I think this misuse of a word is indicative of her grasp on this whole subject matter. Her laugh and smile seem so fake it is annoying. I feel sorry for her family that they have to deal with such an unreasonable and superficial person.

 

[noguru]

That video wouldn't play here for me so I found it on youtube. I thought Dawkins by far more than held his own, when he was allowed to get a word in. That woman doggedly, and painfully, refused to listen to reason.

'Theistic evolution' is made up of people honest enough to see the evidence for evolution (kudos for that), while having cherished, unmovable faith based theistic beliefs. So to avoid cognitive dissonance, they find a way to amalgamate the two. This is their right but hardly the middle ground IMO.

1) Evolution occurred - factual, based on masses of scientific evidence. Just the facts, just the evidence, nothing added.


2) God did it that way - religion based on faith but lacking scientific evidence.

Science is not just the middle but all the ground. Faith is an add on to the science, IMO.

I agree. Faith is not science. Faith is about hope and inspiration. Science on its own shows us the tools we have to work with. Faith gives us the drive to use the tools.

 

[Hedshaker]

I agree. Faith is not science. Faith is about hope and inspiration. Science on its own shows us the tools we have to work with. Faith gives us the drive to use the tools.

Are we still talking about religious faith?

 

[Selaphiel]

I agree. Faith is not science. Faith is about hope and inspiration. Science on its own shows us the tools we have to work with. Faith gives us the drive to use the tools.

Without saying that you necessarily see it this way, but there is a danger of just turning religion into feelings with this. I think religious belief needs to be based on a bit more than hope and inspiration (they are important, but they are not grounds for a belief in a proposition).

That being said, I agree that it is not science. Pure science is actually quite modest, it does not make any comment on metaphysics. However, that is an ideal that is very seldom met. Materialism and a purely mechanistic view of nature is very often being mixed in, as if it was a part of the science itself. Materialism is of course every bit as much of a metaphysics as any form of theism (or other forms of non-materialistic ontologies).

And the fact that theism is not based on scientific evidence does not entail that is merely based on faith (here understood as a form of blind belief in a proposition, which is a false understanding of faith as well, but that is another topic). One might be a theist at the same time as one accepts the science of evolution, because one thinks a theistic metaphysics is ultimately a more coherent view of reality, that is not a blind belief.

 

[noguru]

Without saying that you necessarily see it this way, but there is a danger of just turning religion into feelings with this. I think religious belief needs to be based on a bit more than hope and inspiration (they are important, but they are not grounds for a belief in a proposition).

I agree. And as you noted, religion is not only emotion. Just as science is not only logic. Faith in something that is unobservable is not stringently the result of hope and inspiration. In fact if it were not for the fact that I have learned through my own life's experiences that the wisdom Jesus offered in his ministry was accurate, then I certainly would not chose to have faith in Him.

That being said, I agree that it is not science. Pure science is actually quite modest, it does not make any comment on metaphysics. However, that is an ideal that is very seldom met. Materialism and a purely mechanistic view of nature is very often being mixed in, as if it was a part of the science itself. Materialism is of course every bit as much of a metaphysics as any form of theism (or other forms of non-materialistic ontologies).

I understand how metaphysics is applied in philosophy.

And the fact that theism is not based on scientific evidence does not entail that is merely based on faith (here understood as a form of blind belief in a proposition, which is a false understanding of faith as well, but that is another topic). One might be a theist at the same time as one accepts the science of evolution, because one thinks a theistic metaphysics is ultimately a more coherent view of reality, that is not a blind belief.

My theology is certainly not restricted to mere blind faith. I simply had to remove my "contempt prior to investigation" to gain the experience I needed to find evidence for faith. That took willingness.