Church and believers are not to judge, God and Christ will judge.

Clete

Truth Smacker
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I just reread most of the first 50 posts of this thread. It is a master class on the power of paradigm. Dave is completely blind to everything RightDivider was saying. Totally and completely blind to it. So much so that it feels intentional but I doubt that it is. Dave has a lifetime of teaching that has trained his mind to filter scripture through a particular lens. Luckily, its the near opposite lens to what someone like Idolater filters the scripture through. At least Dave reads the words of Jesus and finds a way to hear Paul's teaching (i.e. grace). Idolater reads Paul and hears Moses!

As Mid-Acts Dispensationalists, we can read Moses, Jesus, Paul and James and take them all to mean just what they seem to say without the need to interpret them to mean something else. That single fact effortlessly resolves so many biblical issues. Why that isn't persuasive, I don't know. But it isn't in all but the rarest of cases. Paradigm shifts are the hardest thing there is to achieve in others.
 

Idolater

Popetard
I just reread most of the first 50 posts of this thread. It is a master class on the power of paradigm. Dave is completely blind to everything RightDivider was saying. Totally and completely blind to it. So much so that it feels intentional but I doubt that it is. Dave has a lifetime of teaching that has trained his mind to filter scripture through a particular lens. Luckily, its the near opposite lens to what someone like Idolater filters the scripture through. At least Dave reads the words of Jesus and finds a way to hear Paul's teaching (i.e. grace). Idolater reads Paul and hears Moses!

As Mid-Acts Dispensationalists, we can read Moses, Jesus, Paul and James and take them all to mean just what they seem to say without the need to interpret them to mean something else. That single fact effortlessly resolves so many biblical issues. Why that isn't persuasive, I don't know. But it isn't in all but the rarest of cases. Paradigm shifts are the hardest thing there is to achieve in others.

Idolater here. "I read Paul and hear Moses," what are you talking about?
 

Right Divider

Body part
I just reread most of the first 50 posts of this thread. It is a master class on the power of paradigm. Dave is completely blind to everything RightDivider was saying. Totally and completely blind to it. So much so that it feels intentional but I doubt that it is.
This is why you and I both start getting upset a bit. We repeatedly give Dave the facts and it continues to fall on deaf ears.

So many people cling to Churchianity and will not even consider anything else... paradigm lock-in at its finest.

I've been wanting to write an article itemizing the features of Churchianity and refuting them one by one.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Idolater here. "I read Paul and hear Moses," what are you talking about?
Catholic dogma is up to it's eyeballs with legalism of every make model and color.

Do you or do you not believe that believers are obliged to follow the Ten Commandments?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I think many don’t want it to be true. Especially if they’re grounded in theology. Then their theological degree from seminary is wrong.
There is actually a term for this. It's called "entrenchment".

People make decisions based on a perceived cost/benefit analysis. There is no actual analysis done in the methodical sense of the word, but merely on an intuitive basis. Someone perceives an idea and a lightning calculation is done that instantly tells them (rightly or wrongly) that the cost of accepting such an idea is far too high. The more time, energy, money and effort has been invested into their current paradigm the harder it is to ever break them out of it. It simply costs too much. Imagine a pastor of a church, or anyone with a long standing ministry having to alter large swaths of the doctrine that they not only have spent years learning and teaching to others but that they also make their living from. Every friend they have probably exists within the orbit of that ministry. You couldn't hardly find anyone more deeply entrenched than that.

For this reason, paradigm shifts must be approached slowly, methodically and with extreme care. Each step that is taken on the path leading to the new paradigm has to be accepted fully all along the way and when the destination is arrived at, the whole path taken to get there has to be visible in the mind's eye such that it seems that no other path could have been taken. They have to feel like they arrived there under their own power and when the light bulb moment happens, they have to feel like they would have flipped the switch themselves had they known the switch existed. Otherwise, the new paradigm will definitely be rejected. It may be rejected anyway, but if there are plausible excuses to do so, the likelihood of the rejection is increased exponentially, especially for those who are deeply invested into that which they have to walk away from.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
This is why you and I both start getting upset a bit. We repeatedly give Dave the facts and it continues to fall on deaf ears.

So many people cling to Churchianity and will not even consider anything else... paradigm lock-in at its finest.

I've been wanting to write an article itemizing the features of Churchianity and refuting them one by one.
You should write it!

That sounds like the beginnings of a book, actually.

I watched a YouTube video several months ago. The content creator was talking about 'writing to learn' and advised his viewership, instead of merely researching a topic that they're interested in, that they should set about to write about it and spent some time establishing the fact that it is one of, if not the most effective means of thoroughly learning a subject because it forces you to slow down and think through every single thought write.

It totally works for me! I set out to write on a subject that has occupied my thoughts since childhood. What began as a simple effort has become the first two chapters of a book that, as far as I can determine, offers the most methodical argument for the existence of God ever developed from first principles. It not only demonstrates that God exists, but systematically eliminates every competing conception of God in the history of religion, leaving only the God revealed in Scripture.

I strongly encourage you to write the essay and see where it takes you!
 

Nick M

Fully Semi-Automatic
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There is actually a term for this. It's called "entrenchment".

People make decisions based on a perceived cost/benefit analysis. There is no actual analysis done in the methodical sense of the word, but merely on an intuitive basis. Someone perceives an idea and a lightning calculation is done that instantly tells them (rightly or wrongly) that the cost of accepting such an idea is far too high. The more time, energy, money and effort has been invested into their current paradigm the harder it is to ever break them out of it. It simply costs too much. Imagine a pastor of a church, or anyone with a long standing ministry having to alter large swaths of the doctrine that they not only have spent years learning and teaching to others but that they also make their living from. Every friend they have probably exists within the orbit of that ministry. You couldn't hardly find anyone more deeply entrenched than that.

For this reason, paradigm shifts must be approached slowly, methodically and with extreme care. Each step that is taken on the path leading to the new paradigm has to be accepted fully all along the way and when the destination is arrived at, the whole path taken to get there has to be visible in the mind's eye such that it seems that no other path could have been taken. They have to feel like they arrived there under their own power and when the light bulb moment happens, they have to feel like they would have flipped the switch themselves had they known the switch existed. Otherwise, the new paradigm will definitely be rejected. It may be rejected anyway, but if there are plausible excuses to do so, the likelihood of the rejection is increased exponentially, especially for those who are deeply invested into that which they have to walk away from.
I listened to a video today on youtube from Paul Felter. About a peace accord Trump is trying to put together. And how it is not prophecy, but it leads to it and sets the stage. Just like the scanner in Walmart and grocery stores isn't the mark of the beast, but setting the stage for it. Anyway, in it he mentioned this very thing and quotes Paul. Being a right divider, I expect nothing less from him. But his main point is believing the lying wonders.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I listened to a video today on youtube from Paul Felter. About a peace accord Trump is trying to put together. And how it is not prophecy, but it leads to it and sets the stage. Just like the scanner in Walmart and grocery stores isn't the mark of the beast, but setting the stage for it. Anyway, in it he mentioned this very thing and quotes Paul. Being a right divider, I expect nothing less from him. But his main point is believing the lying wonders.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
I've always loved that phrase, "the love of the truth". That is truly the key! And the definite article is present in the Greek is it "the truth" that Paul is talking about. Paul is not talking about a vague appreciation for truth in general. He is pointing to a definite, recognized truth, something objective, something that can be received or rejected. In other words, the issue is not ignorance of the truth, but refusal to accept it.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
I listened to a video today on youtube from Paul Felter. About a peace accord Trump is trying to put together. And how it is not prophecy, but it leads to it and sets the stage. Just like the scanner in Walmart and grocery stores isn't the mark of the beast, but setting the stage for it. Anyway, in it he mentioned this very thing and quotes Paul. Being a right divider, I expect nothing less from him. But his main point is believing the lying wonders.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
TheFacadeOfPeace.jpg
 

JudgeRightly

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Are you obliged to not kill, to not commit adultery, to not commit perjury, to not steal? Aren't we of one mind in these matters?

That you can't recognize the difference between [keeping a law that says "do not murder"] and simply not hating your fellow man is a glaring issue with your paradigm.
 

Clete

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Are you obliged to not kill, to not commit adultery, to not commit perjury, to not steal? Aren't we of one mind in these matters?
Not because the Ten Commandments says so, I'm not!

Here's a question Idolator does NOT know the answer too...


What's the difference between following the law and being righteous?

Conversely....

What's the difference between breaking the law and sinning?
 

JudgeRightly

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If a man is tempted to kill, commit adultery, commit perjury, or steal, isn't he obliged to resist that temptation?

Did God want Adam and Eve to partake of the tree? Or did He want them to love Him?

The tree is the knowledge of good and evil.

The knowledge of good and evil is the law.

The strength of sin is the law.

The sting of death is sin.

Love is the commitment to the good of someone.

So yes, if a man is tempted to murder, commit adultery, lie, or steal, then he should not do those things.

But your question assumes that the only alternative to sin is law.

That is a paradigm error.

God did not create Adam and Eve for law. He created them for life, fellowship, trust, and love. The command concerning the tree was not the goal of their existence. It was the boundary. God did not want them living by the knowledge of good and evil. He wanted them living by trust in Him.

Man chose the tree.

And from that point forward, fallen man has kept trying to make righteousness into a matter of managing good and evil by law.

But law does not produce love, as the entire story of the Bible shows. Law exposes sin. Law condemns sin. Law restrains sin. But it does not give life. If it gave life, then Israel would be in a much different place than it is now.

The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The day the law was given, around 3000 people were killed.

The day the Spirit was given, around 3000 people were given life.

That's not a coincidence.

Paul says the law is a tutor to bring men to Christ.

It teaches man that he cannot earn life through obedience. It tells him what righteousness requires, then exposes that he does not have righteousness in himself. It commands life, but cannot give life. It demands obedience, but cannot produce love. It shows man his sin, his weakness, and his need for Christ.

A tutor is for children, not mature sons.

Once faith has come, we are no longer under the tutor.

The tutor can say, “Do not murder.” But the tutor cannot produce love for your brother.

The tutor can say, “Do not commit adultery.” But the tutor cannot produce faithfulness.

The tutor can say, “Do not steal.” But the tutor cannot produce generosity.

The tutor can say, “Do not bear false witness.” But the tutor cannot produce truthfulness from the heart.

Love does what the law can only command.

That is Paul’s point in Romans 13. He names the commandments against adultery, murder, theft, false witness, and coveting, and then says they are summed up in this:

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Why?

Because love does no harm to a neighbor.

Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Notice what Paul does not say. He does not say, “Therefore, put yourself under the Ten Commandments.” He says love fulfills the law.

A man walking in love does not murder because murder is contrary to love.

A man walking in love does not commit adultery because adultery betrays love.

A man walking in love does not bear false witness because false witness destroys truth and justice.

A man walking in love does not steal because love does not take what belongs to another.

That is not lawlessness.

It's what Paul means by righteousness apart from the law.

Jesus is the example. He was tempted, yet without sin. Not because He needed the law to restrain Him, but because sin had no claim on Him. He loved the Father and did always those things that pleased Him.

That is the life of sonship.

So the answer is yes, a man should resist evil. But the deeper answer is that a man walking in love is not governed by temptation in the first place. He does not need the tutor standing over him with a list of rules, because love already fulfills what the list could only command.

The law can tell a man what sin is, but it cannot make him alive.

The law kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The law is for the lawless.

Love is for sons.
 

Synergos

New member
I found the following on a church's statement of faith: "Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come."

Many believe there is a distinction between judgment and to judge. "Judgment (noun) is the cognitive process of forming an opinion, discernment, or the result of a decision, often based on facts and critical thinking. To judge (verb) is the act of condemning" [verbally not just to punish] and I would add rebuking and possibly shaming. Given these definitions, would you affirm or oppose the given statement of faith? Do you believe it is the role of the church to judge (verb) or not? I will argue the church is not to judge and that the statement of faith is flawed.
It normally cannot judge the internal things of one's life, thus eternal fate, that is being known to the Lord Alone, but it can judge the moral actions, and pass the verdict on those.
 
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