Church and believers are not to judge, God and Christ will judge.

Derf

Well-known member
I wonder whether Dave would have ever noticed, without me pointing it out here, that the one he accuses of teaching that one can "sin with impunity" was the one calling him on the carpet about lying? Probably not.

In any case, I've been working on the following essay in response to this whole topic. Whether Dave ever reads it and gets anything out of it is beyond my control. I didn't create it for him. I learn by writing. It is my desire to know, for my own sake, that I know not only what I believe, but why I believe it. This "sin with impunity" charge always gets my heart rate up because it's so false from so many different directions. Dave, and others that have similar reactions to our doctrine, seem to think that Mid-Acts hamartiology amounts to pretending that sin doesn't exist.

Full disclosure: I passed this through an AI for editing sake. It made a few modest alterations but not enough to alter the meaning of anything. That is to say, the only things it changed had to do with spelling, grammar and slight wording alterations for "flow".



Righteousness Apart from the Law: Why We Do Not Teach That Believers Can Sin with Impunity


People throw this charge at us all the time, and it is pretty predictable. If we are not under the law anymore, if every sin is already forgiven, if our righteousness is only in Christ and not in how well we perform, then what is to stop a person from just doing whatever they want and calling it grace?

The problem with that question has to do with what it presupposes. The law was never the thing that made people righteous or produced real moral living in the first place. Scripture calls the law holy, just, and good, but its main job was never to transform anyone. It was there to expose sin, to name it clearly, and to hold the sinner accountable. It could diagnose the disease, but it could not provide the cure. It never gave the life or power needed to actually obey what it demanded. If the law could have produced righteousness, Israel’s track record would have proven it. Instead, it proved the exact opposite. All those perfect commands still could not create the obedience they required.

A Mid-Acts view just takes this seriously and follows it all the way through to its logic conclusion. The believer is not under the law because the law was never meant to make us righteous to begin with. It was like a mirror. It showed us what was really there, but it had no power to change what it reflected. It could command, threaten, and condemn, but it could not impart life. And without life, real righteousness is impossible.

Once you are placed in Christ, everything changes. Righteousness is not something you chase anymore through effort and discipline. It is something you already possess because you are joined to Him. You do not stand before God based on how well you measure up to a standard. You stand there on the basis of how well Christ measured up to THE standard. You stand before God based on Christ's righteousness, which is now counted as yours. Your whole identity has shifted, and so has the ground of how you relate to God and to right and wrong.

That is usually when the objection comes up almost automatically. If the law is gone, then morality goes with it. Anything goes! But what actually disappears is not morality, but rather the mistaken idea that morality was ever rooted in the law in the first place. Law reflects morality. It does not create it.

Morality is about what actually sustains and promotes life. It is about what lines up with the way reality is built. Evil is what corrupts, twists, and eventually destroys. That is not some made-up definition that depends on a written code. Life itself is the standard. Actions are moral or immoral based on whether they build up that life or tear it down. (To answer some who might insist the God is the standard - You aren't following the logic. God Himself is Life Itself. (see Deuteronomy 30:15, Proverbs 11:19 and elsewhere.)

When the law says do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, it is not inventing moral truth out of nowhere. It is pointing out behaviors that destroy trust, relationships, and life itself. The command is descriptive before it is prescriptive. It is telling the truth about how things really work, and warning us away from what carries real consequences. Once you see that, taking the law away does not remove morality. It removes the middleman and puts you in direct contact with reality. The question stops being which rule applies here and becomes what actually leads to life vs. what leads to destruction?

This is why love ends up being so much more than just avoiding the "thou shalt not" list. Love is not rule-keeping. It acts and moves with real intention toward the good of the other person in ways that protect and build life. It deals with reality instead of checking boxes. A guy might not steal because he is afraid of getting caught or punished. That does not say much about whether he actually cares about people. But another man who works hard, provides, and gives of himself for others, that is coming from a different place. He is operating out of an understanding of what is genuinely good, not just external compliance.

This is where the whole accusation that grace leads to loose living starts to fall apart. People who really grasp grace usually see sin more clearly, not less. They see it for what it is: not just breaking a rule, but an attack on life, on relationships, on the things that make human flourishing possible. Sexual sin illustrates this with particular force. That is why those of us who preach grace are often so firm about it. It is not about abstract rule-breaking, but about taking something that God designed to give life and twisting it into something destructive. The fallout does not stay with the individual, but spreads into families, churches, and the whole fabric of society itself. A group of believers who understand this cannot treat it casually. When they confront it or even remove someone who refuses to repent from it, it's not us slipping back into legalism. On the contrary, its us protecting life and relationships inside the body. It is not an act of law but of love.

The believer’s motivation for their own actions changes at a deep level. You are not trying to earn acceptance anymore. You are not constantly measuring yourself against a performance standard. You start from acceptance, and that freedom lets you face reality honestly. You do not have to defend or minimize your sin because the fear of condemnation is gone. What you get instead is a life of real responsibility instead of mere rule-following. It's discernment instead of checklists and a kind of love that is rooted in truth and aimed at what is actually good.

Here's something that our accusers never seem to notice. Paul himself faced the exact same accusation. People said he was teaching that we should sin so that grace could abound even more. The critics twisted his message of free grace into license. In that sense, those of us who hold a Mid-Acts position are in very good company! We are hearing the same charge that was leveled at the apostle Paul. On the other hand, those who insist that believers must obey the Ten Commandments and who accuse us of teaching that we can sin with impunity will never, ever face that accusation themselves. No one has ever accused them of preaching sin that grace may abound. It wouldn't ever occur to anyone to make such an accusation. Their message simply does not lend itself to that kind of misunderstanding. That fact alone ought to make our accusers pause and ask which message is actually closer to the one Paul proclaimed.

The idea that you can sin freely under grace only makes sense if you have a shallow view of both sin and grace. Sin has built-in consequences that are baked into reality: damaged relationships, broken trust, personal destruction, even physical death. Grace does not magically erase those consequences. It removes condemnation before God and restores fellowship with Him, but it also lets you see sin clearly for the first time, without all the excuses. A man who knows he is fully forgiven does not have to hide his sin or dress it up. He can call it what it is. And that kind of honesty usually produces seriousness, not carelessness. Where the law could only bring the fear of punishment, but we have not been given a Spirit of fear but of love! Faith works by love! (Galatians 5:6)

Righteousness is not something you build by keeping commandments. Morality is not created by having a code. Righteousness is a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ. And real morality flows from the kind of life He embodies. When you put all this together, the supposed contradiction vanishes. People who are not under the law can still be deeply committed to righteousness, not because they are ruled by a list of rules, but because they have been given life in the One who is the source of it, and they understand what aligns with that life.

So why is this accusation so commonly where discussions about Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is being debated? It's because this kind of clarity does not just happen in generic Christianity. It comes from seeing certain distinctions in Scripture that a lot of people either miss or deliberately blur. What I have laid out here fits most naturally and consistently inside a Mid-Acts dispensational understanding. Not because other views cannot say some of the same things, but because they do not have the structural foundation that lets all the pieces fit together without there being a constant tension that is produced by a subtle double-mindedness (sometimes not so subtle).

A lot of believers will agree that righteousness is in Christ alone, that forgiveness is total, and that love fulfills the moral life. They will even sound a lot like what I have written here at times. But then they will turn around and still insist that the believer is somehow under the law, especially the moral law, as if parts of the Mosaic system still have authority over the Body of Christ. That creates this quiet, ongoing inconsistency. On one side they say righteousness is apart from the law and all in Christ. On the other, they keep pointing people back to the law as the measuring stick for daily living. It is like affirming grace in theory while sneaking law back in through the side door. The tension never really goes away.

Mid-Acts cuts that tension off at the root. It recognizes Paul’s unique apostleship and the distinct identity of the Body of Christ. The program given to Israel, including the Mosaic Law in its entirety, was never addressed to the Body, nor was it intended to function as its governing rule of life. It belonged to a different covenant, with a different people, under different promises, in a different dispensation. Once you make that distinction, the question about whether we are under the Ten Commandments or any part of the law pretty much answers itself. The law does not apply to us, not in part, not in some spiritualized version, not as a moral guide. It was a complete system that served its purpose and has now been set aside for those who are in Christ. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness sake. (Romans 10:4)

This is where it gets uncomfortable for a lot of people. Many are happy to drop the ceremonial parts of the law but want to keep the moral parts, as if you can slice it up neatly. But Scripture does not treat the law that way. It is one unified covenant. You cannot put yourself under part of it without putting yourself under the whole thing. (Galatians 5:3) The Mid-Acts view refuses to make that artificial split. It says the believer’s relationship to the law is not partial obedience. It is complete freedom from it. And that freedom does not weaken morality. It actually clarifies where morality really comes from.

Those who do not make this distinction often end up trying to explain how we can be free from the law and still bound to it at the same time. They will call it a guide, or a reflection of God’s character, or a standard that does not condemn but still directs. All of those attempts try to keep the law’s authority while using grace language, but the tension is still there because the law as a system was never fully released. Because of that, when they do sound like what I have written here, it is in spite of their theological framework, not because of it. Their conclusions might be good, but the foundation underneath them stays shaky. That instability shows up every time law and grace get pushed hard.

By contrast, the Mid-Acts framework gives these truths a solid place to stand. The believer’s relationship to the law is not one of partial obligation, but of complete release. Our freedom from the law is total and is not presented merely as a nice theological idea. It flows directly from who we are: members of a distinct body, under a distinct apostleship, living in a distinct dispensation. Removing the law does not leave a moral vacuum, because morality was never dependent on the law to begin with. That lets everything I said earlier stand without having to add qualifiers or workarounds. Righteousness is entirely in Christ. Morality reflects the nature of life as God designed it. Love acts in line with that reality. Sin destroys, whether there is a commandment against it or not.

This is not just a clever defense of grace against the old antinomian charge. It is a demonstration that when we understand the believer’s position rightly, and when we let the law stay where Scripture actually puts it, we do not get confusion or contradiction. We get clarity. And instead of moral indifference, we get a deeper, more honest commitment to what is genuinely good.
I don't see that (the bolded part) in Mid-Acts. I'm not saying it is never there, but I don't see it any more than in other believers.
 

Right Divider

Body part
There is no acceptable causes in good debate for insults.
There was no "good debate" going on with you. You constantly used unsound and ridiculous statements. You do not know how to properly argument a case.
Who decides what are a good causes and which ones are not.
The management of this site has discretion for the site. Are you new to the Internet?
Everyone will always say they were justified to call some else an idiot.
Again, the management of THIS site decides what is "good/bad" for THIS site.
Now you're accusing me of not being sensible.
Indeed I am, because that is the case.

You constantly make unsupported claims that are directly REFUTED by us with SUPPORT.
You don't reply in kind, you simply make MORE unsupported CLAIMS.
You think you are right, and I'm only sensible when I agree with you, and if I don't you can insult me, correct?
That is a RIDICULOUS idea that is often brought by those, like you, that cannot make a decent argument. You should know by reading our posts that that is NOT the case at all. That is the very reason that Clete called you dishonest, because you say things that you know are not true (or at least should know).

That is EXACTLY the kind of non-sensible garage that I was talking about!
Seems to me if I insult you it will not "end well" for me.
I did NOT say that Dave.

I was talking about insulting the ADMINISTRATORS of this site not ending well for you. I could care less if you insult me or not, particularly when I know that I'm making good solid arguments.
You can say you're right and that I am wrong for good reasons without name-calling and ridicule.
Dave,
When you say something ridiculous, you may get ridicule. That's life.

Do you agree or disagree with the definition of ad hominem? post #1745
That are only 180 posts in this thread... did you miscalculate again?

P.S. Did you know that you can post a link to the post that you want to reference?
 
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DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
If Mid Acts means we can never lose our salvation then Mid Acts means we can sin with impunity--without fear of losing eternal life.

--Dave
 

Right Divider

Body part
If Mid Acts means we can never lose our salvation then Mid Acts means we can sin with impunity without fear of losing eternal life.

--Dave
Why does God's grace without works bother you? It seems that you want to work (even if just a little) your way to heaven.

Paul explains over and over again how the body of Christ is saved by faith alone. That is why Paul calls the FREE GIFT, the GIFT BY GRACE.

Rom 5:15-16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(5:15) But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (5:16) And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

And the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS:

Rom 5:17 (AKJV/PCE)​
(5:17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)​

It is Christ's righteousness Dave, not ours.

Rom 5:19 (AKJV/PCE)​
(5:19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

P.S. It's not really a Mid-Acts position... it the BIBLE position.

P.P.S. Why would someone saved by grace through faith want to "sin with impunity"?

P.P.P.S. You need to read Clete's post: https://theologyonline.com/threads/...vers-can-sin-with-impunity.61569/post-1926105
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I certainly do not think that sin does not exist nor do I think that others who question the extent of God's grace in Mid Acts think that. Romans 6:1, "What shall we say", implies Paul is also asking the same question along with others, or else he would have said, how should we answer those who say, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

All I want to know is, does Mid Acts say we can never lose our salvation? If we can lose our salvation, then I have no problem with Mid Acts.
If you continue to be this responsive then I'm happy to continue the discussion. Go into jerk mode or unresponsive mode again and you're on your own.

Why is that the doctrine you desire to cling too? How is it possible that that single issue is sufficient to falsify (in your mind) an entire theological system? Why is it so important for you to preserve the fear of Hell fire in your theological system?

The teaching on this point actually varies to some degree from one Mid-Acts teacher and another. It isn't in anyway central to the system and it is far away from being a premise upon which the system is based.

My answer, which I learned from Bob Enyart and with which I completely agree is that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit "unto the Day of Redemption"; that the Holy Spirit is given to us as an earnest payment, a guarantee against our salvation; that even when we are faithless, He is faithful and cannot deny Himself. This sounds very much like "you cannot lose your salvation", but it is a bit more nuanced than that. The phrase "unto the day of redemption" is important. We will be delivered safely to that day when we will stand before God. What happens on that day and thereafter is quite a different question.

The best way to express what is meant by this is to just give a hypothetical to illustrate the principle.

If a person places their trust in Christ as a young man and is, in fact, saved, then, through the course of his life, due to tragedy perhaps or for whatever reason, turns from God and learns to hate God, despise Christ, Christianity and Christians and his life turns out to be defined by a love for everything evil and depraved and wicked....

Will such a man desire to spend eternity with God when he is presented before His presence on the day of redemption?

I think not!

Will God force such a person to remain in Heaven forever against his will?

I think not!

Would such a person choose Hell fire over God's Heaven?

Yeah! I think he probably would!

Would such a person be the norm?

No! Definitely not. I expect that He would be the rare exception, actually. But few and far between is not zero.

Was the man ever saved?

YES! Definitely! That's stipulated as part of the hypothetical.

Did he "lose his salvation"?

Well, the answer to that question depends on your point of view. He was sealed by the Holy Spirit and delivered safely before God as promised. In that sense he did not lose his salvation. He ended up in Hell by his own willful choice. In that sense he did lose it. So take your pick.

If we can never lose our salvation, then we can sin with impunity--suffering no "eternal consequence".
Christ's death was eternal. That is, it was of infinite, inexhaustible and endless value. Every sin you commit is accounted for under that economy and as such all sin has an eternal consequence because either you pay the penalty or the God who is Life itself and who has existed from eternity past, died for that sin. Either way the consequence is quite "eternal".

As I said before, it comes down to whether or not you believe that God died for all of your sin.

Paul saying, "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God",


11 And such were some of you:" means they were no longer fornicating nor, being idolaters, etc. If they never stopped being adulterers, etc. or if they go back to being adulterers, etc., then they would not inherit eternal life is what Paul seems to be saying.
That is only what it seams to be saying if you use it as a proof text for the doctrine that you bring, a priori, to the reading of it. Doing so is what makes you stop quoting the passage IN THE MIDDLE of verse 11!

The rest of the verse kills the whole notion!

I Corinthians 6:11b "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."​

Notice the three fold emphasis that Paul uses. It could not be any more emphatic! Are the washed still stained by sin? Are the sanctified still wicked? Are the justified still condemned?

CERTAINLY NOT!!!

Then verse 12 drives the stake through the heart of this false teaching...

I Corinthians 6:12 ALL THINGS are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.​
Can you fail to see the point? Is Paul not teaching that there is no such thing as a sin that is committed with impunity? Even if all things are lawful, that doesn't mean that there are no consequences to your actions.

That means it's possible for us to lose our salvation is what many believe Paul is saying.
Whether they believe Paul is saying that has to do with what their doctrine already is when they read the passage.

Those who believe in free will usually believe one can lose their salvation. Those who don't believe in free will usually believe no one can lose their salvation.
This is an accurate observation but it doesn't apply here because the premises are quite different. Typically, a discussion about free will is also a discussion about predestination. That dichotomy doesn't apply here for the reasons explained above. It is our safe arrival to the day of redemption that is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit, not whether we will spend eternity in Heaven and it is precisely our will that will, at least in part, be the deciding factor.

There are many today who say they have de-converted. That should constitute losing your salvation, I would think.
It isn't up to you.

Such people may or may not have ever been actual saved believers to begin with, but those that are (were) would be candidates for the hypothetical scenario I presented above. When they stand before God, the result is something that is between that person and God who is both wise and righteous.

I personally don't believe Mid Act is worth being divided over if free will is affirmed, all other differences can be debated but I don't intend to lose sleep or fellowship over if Paul is a prototype or not.
This sentence is proof that you definitely do not understand what Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is. There is hardly a doctrine that it does not touch. One's theology proper would probably come through mostly untouched but everything else from soteriology to eschatology and everything in-between is modified in very important ways by simply understanding that Israel's program ended with the stoning of Stephen and the Body of Christ began with Paul and not at Pentecost. It makes a huge difference when you understand that Jesus' teachings applied to Israel, under the law and that the epistles written by Peter, James, John and Jude are someone else's mail.

I would just teach both views and let everyone make up their own mind.
Someone here recently accused you of being a double minded man. Now you admit to it, (although without intending to do so).

I would not take the same approach to free will. But I will still call a Calvinist a brother in the Lord, though sadly mistaken in his theology, he still believes in the atonement.

--Dave
That depends on the Calvinist. A great many Calvinists believe that God is arbitrary. They give lip service to Him being just but it's only lip service. When pressed you find out that their definition of justice, when applied to God, is quite the opposite of what everyone else means when they employ the concept. When they find themselves before God, they won't get to play word games. Do you suppose that a person who actually believes in an unjust God (whether they're willing to put into those words or not) will be saved? I wouldn't hold my breath!
 
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