Can God lie?

[way 2 go]

You're jumping in in the middle of the conversation. I've already said that war strategies allow for deceiving the enemy, and certainly for killing the enemy.

whose war strategies ? whose doing the allowing ?


do you even know if In a war is right or wrong to kill the enemy?

But Jesus also said to love your enemy. So killing men is forbidden, except when the alternative is worse in some way.

what verse says that ?

Jesus also said this :
(Luke 19:27 [MKJV]) But those who are my enemies, who did not desire that I should reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.

Deceiving men might be treated the same way. But neither should be thought of as righteous acts without the added circumstances. Surely David shouldn't have had Uriah killed, even though he was the enemy (a Hittite), and they were supposed to drive the Hittites from the land. They were even allowed to take the women for wives from the enemy when they conquered a people.

which belief do you hold ?
situational ethics or
moral absolutes


was David right or wrong when he killed Goliath ?

 

[Derf]

whose war strategies ? whose doing the allowing ?


do you even know if In a war is right or wrong to kill the enemy?


what verse says that ?

Matthew 5:44 KJV — But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Jesus also said this :
(Luke 19:27 [MKJV]) But those who are my enemies, who did not desire that I should reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.

You do realize that you've quoted a verse talking not about enemies in name, but enemies in deed?
Luke 19:14 KJV — But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. [meaning that they were not willing that the lord of the parable tell them what to do]
This concept is at the crux of this side conversation about whether lying is righteous or not. If Jesus doesn't want us to lie, and we say it's ok to lie, then we are setting ourselves up as those who would not have the Lord Jesus to rule over us. We will be like these folks:
1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV — Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Lying is here associated with the lawless, disobedient, ungodly, sinners, unholy, and profane persons, and contrary to sound doctrine! Not with followers of Christ.

Matthew 7:21-23 KJV — Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

which belief do you hold ?
situational ethics or
moral absolutes


was David right or wrong when he killed Goliath ?

David was right in killing Goliath.

 

[Hoping]

Oh my goodness. If we spent half as much time thanking the Lord for His goodness, as we do on these silly hypotheticals, we might actually speak to someone's heart.

Amen to that.

I can remember back when I spent all day long worrying about what might happen, and wondering if God would allow it to happen. I'm thinking you folks have more to offer than what I've been seeing here.

Trusting God is so much more satisfying to the soul.

 

[glorydaz]

Amen to that.

Trusting God is so much more satisfying to the soul.

I'll be honest. I'd be lost.
Did you notice how I did that?

 

[glorydaz]

I learned a lot of valuable information about MAD here too.

OV means Open View. It was really the first distinctive thing I noticed about TOL back in the day was that a lot of users preferred the Open View or Open Theism to what they always called Classical Theism which meant God foresees with exhaustive definitive foreknowledge.

The Open View says God can't see the future actions of free agents like us. This in spite of Jesus's foreknowledge of what both Peter and Judas were going to do. And in spite of things like every single one of us itt knowing with 100.000...% accuracy that @Hoping here will never repent of his false gospel. At least in the next say week or so. Anything can happen given enough time or a miracle, but in the next week, we are all certain, and we are also all correct, that Hoping will not recant his false gospel in the next week. That's impossible, and we all know that.

But the OV says God doesn't know that. When asked if it's a voluntary Self-limitation for God the OV says No, God doesn't know whether Hoping will recant his wrong testimony in the next week, because that's not knowable.

So you've got all of us on one side and we all know Hoping enough to know exactly what he's not going to do in the next week, and then there's God Who doesn't know what we all know. That's the OV.

Brilliant, I must say.

I'm beginning to remember some of those arguments. Most of them, IMO, seemed to be like "performing" on a debate stage.
I guess I'll need to wait and see about Hoping. LOL

 

[way 2 go]

David was right in killing Goliath.

was David a murderer when he killed Goliath ?

 

[Hoping]

I'll be honest. I'd be lost.

Why?

Did you notice how I did that?

No.

 

[Hoping]

Brilliant, I must say.

I'm beginning to remember some of those arguments. Most of them, IMO, seemed to be like "performing" on a debate stage.
I guess I'll need to wait and see about Hoping. LOL

I am "hoping" that I will never give up my belief that God makes it possible to love Him with all my heart, strength, soul, and might.
It starts with the the gift of a true repentance from sin.

 

[Derf]

was David a murderer when he killed Goliath ?

No.
Why?

 

[way 2 go]

No.
Why?

therefore
you know situational ethics

so sometimes killing someone is wrong and sometimes killing someone is right
therefore it follows
so sometimes lying is the wrong thing to do and sometimes lying is the right thing to do

the situation determines whether something is right or wrong

and its all the situations that determine whether someone is a liar or murderer

joe biden is a liar Kyle Rittenhouse is man who killed 2 thugs

 

[Derf]

therefore
you know situational ethics

so sometimes killing someone is wrong and sometimes killing someone is right
therefore it follows
so sometimes lying is the wrong thing to do and sometimes lying is the right thing to do

No, it doesn't follow. The reason why we use the word "murder" is because it distinguishes between a wrongful killing and a necessary killing (like "execution", which is commanded by God for crimes such as "murder"). God never commanded anyone to lie, despite @Clete's assertion.

What is the word for a wrong lie? For a good lie? There isn't one.

the situation determines whether something is right or wrong

No situation determines that "murder" is right, because it means "to wrongfully kill another human."

and its all the situations that determine whether someone is a liar or murderer

No, a "liar" is someone who lies. And you can tell by the way @JudgeRightly and @Clete use it here in the forum that it's a perjorative. You never see them call someone "liar" and mean something good by it. They never wait to see if good comes from the lie, or if the liar is eventually blessed by God. The bible uses liar in a similar way--never in a good way.

joe biden is a liar Kyle Rittenhouse is man who killed 2 thugs

Rittenhouse was justified in killing them. He did not "murder" them.

According to situational ethics you have espoused, you can't tell whether Biden is a "liar" yet, because you can't see whether he's doing it for a righteous cause or if God will eventually bless him for his lies.

 

[Hoping]

No, it doesn't follow. The reason why we use the word "murder" is because it distinguishes between a wrongful killing and a necessary killing (like "execution", which is commanded by God for crimes such as "murder").

Where does God command an execution in the NT?

 

[Right Divider]

Where does God command an execution in the NT?

Matthew 15:4 (KJV) For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Matthew 15:5 (KJV) But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Matthew 15:6 (KJV) And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Matthew 15:7 (KJV) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Matthew 15:8 (KJV) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Matthew 15:9 (KJV) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[Derf]

Where does God command an execution in the NT?

Why just NT? Seems like a rabbit trail.

 

[Jefferson]

Why just NT?

Silly Derf. During the time between the old and new testaments God took anger management classes and He's all better now. You didn't know that?

 

[Right Divider]

Why just NT? Seems like a rabbit trail.

It's a common tactic. They seem to think that if something is not explicitly reiterated in the NT, that it's somehow cancelled.

 

[Hoping]

Matthew 15:4 (KJV) For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Matthew 15:5 (KJV) But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Matthew 15:6 (KJV) And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Matthew 15:7 (KJV) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Matthew 15:8 (KJV) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Matthew 15:9 (KJV) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Now we are back to OT Laws?
I thought Middies were done with the Law of Moses?
Where in the NT's post Law guidelines are we ever told to kill anyone?

 

[Hoping]

Why just NT? Seems like a rabbit trail.

Which Testament do you live in?

 

[Hoping]

Silly Derf. During the time between the old and new testaments God took anger management classes and He's all better now. You didn't know that?

He also instituted rebirth from His own seed.
No more eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth, etc.

 

[Hoping]

It's a common tactic. They seem to think that if something is not explicitly reiterated in the NT, that it's somehow cancelled.

Isn't it amazing what love can do?
Instead of killing, we can now forgive and pray for our enemies.
Thanks be to God !