Can God lie?

[JudgeRightly]

The above tells us lying is bad, that we should not do it, that God doesn't do it, and that it will be punished.

Then you need to explain why God did not punish the midwives, or Rahab, or Elisha (who was a prophet of God, no less), or any of the other people in the Bible who lied, whom God either did not punish and in some cases even rewarded them for doing so, or why God deceived the people of Ai, or sent a lying spirit to deceive a wicked king!

In other words, you need to explain why people who fear God, and even God Himself, do evil, according to your position.

 

[Derf]

Then you need to explain why God did not punish the midwives, or Rahab, or Elisha (who was a prophet of God, no less), or any of the other people in the Bible who lied, whom God either did not punish and in some cases even rewarded them for doing so,

Before I go forward, my job is not to give God's reasoning, but to give a feasible reason, one that upholds God's character. Only one is necessary, even if it isn't the one God used (which I might not have access to).

I don't really need to explain any of the human lies any more than I need to explain why God doesn't punish us believers for our sin. Both Rehab and the midwives were believers in God. So was Elisha. But I think I've already explained two of those sufficiently--that the evil of the lie can be sufficiently overlooked based on the larger evil they were attempting to prevent. Elisha could be considered the same, but it seems more likely that he would know both the mind of God and His power better than the midwives and Rahab.

or why God deceived the people of Ai,

God didn't deceive them Himself, but even if He did, the circumstances are a field of battle, and such tactics are allowed in a battle. Even just a two-person swordfight includes feints and other types of deception to allow for a chance to stroke the deathblow.

The general circumstance is the same--they are saving God's people from defeat and death, which would prevent the plan for them bringing forth the Messiah.

or sent a lying spirit to deceive a wicked king!

As I've already said, God does 2 things here.
1. He allows a lying spirit to go to Ahab, KNOWING Ahab would rather believe the lie (Ahab said so himself), and
2. He sends the truth through a true prophet.

In other words, you need to explain why people who fear God, and even God Himself, do evil, according to your position.

Because we are afraid? Because we are not omniscient about what God is able to do? Because we lack perfect faith? I expect you act righteously, for the most part, yet we all know that @Hoping is the only sinless one around here. Does God still reward you, even in this life?

 

[Hoping]

What evil did they do so that good would come of it?
IOW, quit begging the question.

It was a rhetorical question.

Or, lying isn't evil, and they didn't do anything wrong to begin with, which is a much simpler explanation.

Well we know that satan is the father of lies, so your interpretation is off.
It is written..."Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

It turns out that not being under the Mosaic Law proved to be a good thing for Rahab and the midwives, as without the Law, sin is not imputed.

 

[Hoping]

Rahab isn't God. That may seem obvious,

Yeah?

but it didn't show up in your response.

I don't believe you caught the gist of my post.
The women were not under the Mosaic Law, so sin could not be imputed.

 

[Derf]

Yeah?

If comparing what God does vs Rahab, the standards might be different.

I don't believe you caught the gist of my post.
The women were not under the Mosaic Law, so sin could not be imputed.

Nevertheless, they were subject to death, so something was up. Sodom and Gomorrah were also punished before there was a law against sodomy. A whole earth was destroyed due to undefined "wickedness" before the law. Abimelech was sentenced to die for taking another man's wife before adultery laws were codified.

Canaanites were given 400 years before their sin had matured to the point of punishment...but it was sin, nevertheless.

I don't think you can use that excuse.

 

[Hoping]

Nevertheless, they were subject to death, ...

Death from who?

...so something was up. Sodom and Gomorrah were also punished before there was a law against sodomy. A whole earth was destroyed due to undefined "wickedness" before the law. Abimelech was sentenced to die for taking another man's wife before adultery laws were codified.
Canaanites were given 400 years before their sin had matured to the point of punishment...but it was sin, nevertheless.
I don't think you can use that excuse.

God can and will use His reaction to the wickedness of man to "make a point" or illustrate what is not acceptable.
He has made it clear how He will eventually react to wickedness.
"Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
He can even use the wickedness of men, or women, to get His purposes accomplished and to make His power and or mercy known.
( see Assyrians, or, Babylonians)
BTW, Abimelech wasn't given the chance to commit the adultery.
God saved him from it with a dream.

 

[Derf]

Death from who?

I don't understand your question. Through one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, so it seems like the answer is "Adam".

God can and will use His reaction to the wickedness of man to "make a point" or illustrate what is not acceptable.

That doesn't help the people that are destroyed before He uses them to make His point.

He has made it clear how He will eventually react to wickedness.
"Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
He can even use the wickedness of men, or women, to get His purposes accomplished and to make His power and or mercy known.
( see Assyrians, or, Babylonians)
BTW, Abimelech wasn't given the chance to commit the adultery.
God saved him from it with a dream.

How can there be wickedness imputed, if the law hadn't been given yet?

Abimelech had already stolen another man's wife. He was granted mercy because he wasn't responsible for knowing Abraham had lied to him. The point was that he already knew it was sin to take another man's wife. How did he know, if the law had not been given yet?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Before I go forward, my job is not to give God's reasoning, but to give a feasible reason, one that upholds God's character. Only one is necessary, even if it isn't the one God used (which I might not have access to).

God expects those who love Him to know right from wrong, and to be prepared to defend their beliefs.

God is JUST, He is RIGHTEOUS!

Your position has Him and those who fear Him being UNJUST, UNRIGHTEOUS, and the ONLY REASON is because you'd rather hold to the belief that "lying is always evil" rather than considering that you're wrong!

Your committment to the belief that lying is always wrong is stronger than your belief that God is just, and in fact takes priority over it!

That puts you in the wrong!

I don't really need to explain any of the human lies

That's not what I asked and you know it, Derf!

I asked you to explain why God did not punish the midwives, or Rahab, or Elisha (who was a prophet of God, no less), or any of the other people in the Bible who lied, whom God either did not punish and in some cases even rewarded them for doing so, BECAUSE YOU SAID:

"The above tells us lying is bad, that we should not do it, that God doesn't do it, and that it will be punished."

Clearly it was NOT punished in those cases.

Which means that either God arbitrarily (which is by definition unjust) decides which sins He will punish, or that lying is not always wrong.

God is JUST, therefore your claim that "lying will be punished" is wrong, and that means that lying is not something that always needs to be punished, which means it's not always bad, which means that your position, "lying is always evil/wrong" is FALSE!

Both Rehab and the midwives were believers in God.

God chastens those He loves, and He loves those who love Him, and rewards those who fear Him.

But God did not chasten the midwives or Rahab.

He REWARDED THEM!

God doesn't reward someone for doing something wrong, Derf! He either punishes them, or chastens them!

Again, your position makes God unjust, for rewarding sin!

So was Elisha.

Elisha intentionally lied.

You need to explain how a man of God, who did not fear men, was not punished or chastened by God for doing what you hold to be wrong.

Or, consider that your position is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with lying in those circumstances, and give up the belief that lying is always wrong.

Those are your only options.

But I think I've already explained two of those sufficiently--that the evil of the lie can be sufficiently overlooked based on the larger evil they were attempting to prevent.

What part of "Do not do evil" do you not understand, Derf?

DO NOT DO EVIL!

It's understandable that people who hate God would do evil, BUT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HATE GOD!!!!!

We're talking about people who, at the very least, feared God, more than they feared any man.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, NOT SIN!

But your position has God's people, and God Himself, DOING EVIL!

Your position literally has people of God DOING EVIL (according to your position) AND GOD REWARDS THEM FOR IT!

Your position contradicts God's word! That makes you WRONG!

Elisha could be considered the same, but it seems more likely that he would know both the mind of God and His power better than the midwives and Rahab.

Surely Elisha would not have done evil that good come of it!

But that's what your position necessitates!

God didn't deceive them Himself, but even if He did, the circumstances are a field of battle, and such tactics are allowed in a battle. Even just a two-person swordfight includes feints and other types of deception to allow for a chance to stroke the deathblow.

The battle against evil has been going on since Adam sinned.

Thus, this appliies generally, in my favor, not yours.

As Clete said, you're making OUR arguments for us!

Lying is A GOOD THING when we are fighting against EVIL! NOT DOING EVIL THAT GOOD MAY COME OF IT!

This is the exact point I was making earlier, Derf!

Lying to deceive the enemy is a GOOD THING, not evil!

Pharaoh was the ENEMY!
The soldiers of Jericho were the ENEMY!
King Ahab was the ENEMY!
The men of Ai were the ENEMY!
The Syrians were the ENEMY!

The Germansn were the ENEMY!
The slavers in America were the ENEMY!

Lying to deceive the enemies of what is good is NOT EVIL! The ENEMY is evil!

Do not do evil that good may come of it!

The general circumstance is the same--they are saving God's people from defeat and death, which would prevent the plan for them bringing forth the Messiah.

They did not do evil that good would come of it, Derf!

As I've already said, God does 2 things here.
1. He allows a lying spirit to go to Ahab, KNOWING Ahab would rather believe the lie (Ahab said so himself),

God does not look favorably on evil, Derf!

You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness. Why do You look on those who deal treacherously, And hold Your tongue when the wicked devours A person more righteous than he? - Habakkuk 1:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:13&version=NKJV

Either:
A) Your position: God looked favorably upon evil this one time (He chose to sendn (yes, SEND, Scripture literally says that God said, "God and do it") a lying spirit to Ahab, rather than doing something else (the "favorable" part)), OR
B) Our position: Lying is not always wrong, especially when deceiving the enemies of God!

A is false, because of the above premise, which comes directly from scripture.

and
2. He sends the truth through a true prophet.

It's irrelevant, Derf!

The fact is that God commanded the spirit to go and do what the spirit proposed he would do, which was to be a lying spirit in the mouth of all Ahab's prophets.

God does not command that evil be done!!!

Because we are afraid?

Who in ANY of the scenarios was "afraid," Derf!?

The answer is NONE OF THEM!

They ALL feared God!

Fearing God is NOT "being afraid."

Because we are not omniscient about what God is able to do?

Your own sentence regarding Elisha contradicts this statement.

Of things that contradict, only one of them can (not must) be true, because truth is non-contradictory!

And that doesn't mean we get to do evil!

DO NOT DO EVIL that good may come of it!

Because we lack perfect faith?

That's still no excuse to do evil!

And as far as I can tell, Rahab was even put in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11 BECAUSE of her faith, not in spite of it!

I expect you act righteously, for the most part, yet we all know that @Hoping is the only sinless one around here. Does God still reward you, even in this life?

Rahab and the midwives were rewarded for their lies, nott for other things in their life. Thus your reasoning here falls short.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It was a rhetorical question.

Doesn't matter. It's still begging the question. Don't use logical fallacies.

Well we know that satan is the father of lies, so your interpretation is off.
It is written..."Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” - 1 Kings 22:20-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Kings22:20-23&version=NKJV

The Lord does not look favorably on evil, let alone command it be done!

Therefore, either Habakkuk was wrong (Habakkuk 1:13), or lying is not always wrong.

It turns out that not being under the Mosaic Law proved to be a good thing for Rahab and the midwives, as without the Law, sin is not imputed.

This is a solution in search of a problem.

If lying is not a sin, then it's irrelevant whether anyone is under the Mosaic Law.

 

[Idolater]

... the evil of the lie can be sufficiently overlooked based on the larger evil they were attempting to prevent. ...

But is this still relevant today? "The larger evil" is, if I'm understanding you, what you mentioned later:

... [preventing] the plan for them bringing forth the Messiah. ...

Since that's now over, does this mean that lying goes back to being absolutely wrong, in all cases and under all conditions? iow does this mean @Hoping has been correct all along? That even in Nazi Germany, the only obedient and holy and moral choice was to rat out hidden Ashkenazim, and just trust that God's secret hidden plan trumped the security of the absolute human rights of Ashkenazim? (Rights against being kidnapped, tortured, murdered, etc.)

... I expect you act righteously, for the most part, yet we all know that @Hoping is the only sinless one around here. ...

That made me laugh.

... Does God still reward you, even in this life?

God is not mocked.

 

[Clete]

How do we know from the bible that something is sinful? There are few ways.
1. God tells us not to do it. It was sinful for Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge because God told them not to do so. Murder is condemned in several passages.
2. God destroys people for the thing that is sinful. Sodom was destroyed due to sodomy, among other things, even though God had not told them not to do it, as far as we know.
3. God says people who do such things without repentance will not be in His kingdom, or New Jerusalem, etc. Cowards are represented in this last group, but I'm not sure they are addressed in the other two categories anywhere.
4. God is described by Himself or His prophets as not doing something because it violates His character/nature.

There may be other categories, but these are the more obvious ones.

Unlike some things, lying is addressed in all four of these ways.
1. [Lev 19:11 KJV] 11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
2. [Rev 21:8 NLT] 8 "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars--their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
3. [Zep 3:13 KJV] 13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid.
4. [Num 23:19 KJV] 19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Lying is never caveated with "bad lying" or "except when you have to save someone's life" or "to help God's people". It is always described as an evil thing, like here, where it is antithetical to the truth:
[1Jo 2:27 KJV] 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And in the cases you and others have presented that humans have lied and are rewarded, there were other things the people were attempting to do that was worthy of the reward--the reward was never JUST for lying, but lying AND disobeying an evil law (midwives), or lying AND crying out for mercy (Rahab), to save large numbers of people, or some such.

You've admitted that lying is ONLY allowed under certain circumstances, which means you acknowledge the normal sinfulness of lying, but with exceptions (for circumstances).

All of the above is NOT negated just because Paul said "You shall not do evil that good may come," because, as I've pointed out, Paul was claiming that people accused him and other believers of saying that more sin means more grace and more grace is good. That attitude was not present in either the midwives or Rahab.

The above tells us lying is bad, that we should not do it, that God doesn't do it, and that it will be punished. So the episodes where God is presented as the impetus for a lying spirit need to be understood in the light of the other passages, and I don't see any difficulty there, just like I wouldn't call God evil because He sent an evil spirit to torment Saul.

Derf

Completely unresponsive waste of time to read. Nothing at all other than you repeating your position as though nothing has been said to prove it false, like the repeated quoting of God's word including where it directly quotes God Himself saying things that directly contradict your doctrine. Should we believe you or God, Derf?

What this really boils down to is one single question, to which you have consistently failed to give any sort of answer...

Why is it preferable to you to suppose that God does evil that good might result rather than simply excepting that telling a lie is sometimes a good thing to do?

Clete

 

[Derf]

God expects those who love Him to know right from wrong, and to be prepared to defend their beliefs.

God is JUST, He is RIGHTEOUS!

Your position has Him and those who fear Him being UNJUST, UNRIGHTEOUS, and the ONLY REASON is because you'd rather hold to the belief that "lying is always evil" rather than considering that you're wrong!

Your committment to the belief that lying is always wrong is stronger than your belief that God is just, and in fact takes priority over it!

That puts you in the wrong!



That's not what I asked and you know it, Derf!

I think it answers your question accurately and succinctly.

I asked you to explain why God did not punish the midwives, or Rahab, or Elisha (who was a prophet of God, no less), or any of the other people in the Bible who lied, whom God either did not punish and in some cases even rewarded them for doing so, BECAUSE YOU SAID:

"The above tells us lying is bad, that we should not do it, that God doesn't do it, and that it will be punished."

Clearly it was NOT punished in those cases.

Which means that either God arbitrarily (which is by definition unjust) decides which sins He will punish, or that lying is not always wrong.

Or it means that God recognizes our frailties and extends mercy when we are attempting to do right, even if we do it poorly.

God is JUST, therefore your claim that "lying will be punished" is wrong, and that means that lying is not something that always needs to be punished, which means it's not always bad, which means that your position, "lying is always evil/wrong" is FALSE!

And God is merciful. And He can extend mercy to whom He wants to extend mercy.

God chastens those He loves, and He loves those who love Him, and rewards those who fear Him.

But God did not chasten the midwives or Rahab.

You don't know that. All you know is that God rewarded them, but the bible does not say He never chastened them. David did good things and David did bad things. God rewarded David and God chastened David. But there is much more written about David.

He REWARDED THEM!

God doesn't reward someone for doing something wrong, Derf! He either punishes them, or chastens them!

Again, your position makes God unjust, for rewarding sin!

No, because as I already said, He rewarded them for what they did right and, as far as we know, He didn't chasten them for the wrong. If you are so willing to ignore part of what I said, is it possible you are also willing to ignore what God says about lying?

Elisha intentionally lied.

You need to explain how a man of God, who did not fear men, was not punished or chastened by God for doing what you hold to be wrong.

I can't tell from the passage that Elisha did anything wrong. He offered to lead the blinded army to the man they sought. They sought two men, actually, Elisha and the King of Israel. Elisha delivered them to both. Then He told the king, who had them in his power, not to harm them, but to do good to them.
[2Ki 6:18 KJV] And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.
[2Ki 6:19 KJV] And Elisha said unto them, This [is] not the way, neither [is] this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria.
[2Ki 6:20 KJV] And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, LORD, open the eyes of these [men], that they may see. And the LORD opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, [they were] in the midst of Samaria.
[2Ki 6:21 KJV] And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite [them]? shall I smite [them]?
[2Ki 6:22 KJV] And he answered, Thou shalt not smite [them]: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master.
[2Ki 6:23 KJV] And he prepared great provision for them: and when they had eaten and drunk, he sent them away, and they went to their master. So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel.

You remember God's Smuggler, Brother Andrew? Do you remember how when he first started smuggling bibles, he would hide them to keep them from being found? Later, he decided to trust God and just bring lots of bibles, packed in such a way the border guards could easily find them if they searched? But he prayed that God would blind their eyes. Brother Andrew learned to trust God's power more than his own abilities. Elisha went out to the army that was searching for him. He presented himself to them, and treated them kindly in their blindness. But didn't allow them to do the thing they wanted.

Or, consider that your position is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with lying in those circumstances, and give up the belief that lying is always wrong.

Those are your only options.



What part of "Do not do evil" do you not understand, Derf?

DO NOT DO EVIL!

It's understandable that people who hate God would do evil, BUT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HATE GOD!!!!!

We're talking about people who, at the very least, feared God, more than they feared any man.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, NOT SIN!

But your position has God's people, and God Himself, DOING EVIL!

Your position literally has people of God DOING EVIL (according to your position) AND GOD REWARDS THEM FOR IT!

Your position contradicts God's word! That makes you WRONG!

If lying is evil, then it's your position that contradicts God's word. It's your position that promotes doing evil. And I could use your exact wording to say that it's ok for us to murder our enemies, to steal from our enemies. David did that to Goliath, after all. He killed him and took his armor.

Surely Elisha would not have done evil that good come of it!

But that's what your position necessitates!

Supra

The battle against evil has been going on since Adam sinned.

Thus, this appliies generally, in my favor, not yours.

As Clete said, you're making OUR arguments for us!

Lying is A GOOD THING when we are fighting against EVIL! NOT DOING EVIL THAT GOOD MAY COME OF IT!

This is the exact point I was making earlier, Derf!

Lying to deceive the enemy is a GOOD THING, not evil!

It might be in some cases, but that doesn't make lying a good thing, only the overall circumstances. And it's more likely that God wants us to think lying is an abomination that might be necessary for frail and helpless humans sometimes, than to say lying is NOT an abomination when His word says it is.

Pharaoh was the ENEMY!
The soldiers of Jericho were the ENEMY!
King Ahab was the ENEMY!
The men of Ai were the ENEMY!
The Syrians were the ENEMY!

The Germansn were the ENEMY!
The slavers in America were the ENEMY!

Lying to deceive the enemies of what is good is NOT EVIL! The ENEMY is evil!

[Mat 5:43 KJV] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[Mat 5:44 KJV] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[Mat 5:45 KJV] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[Mat 5:46 KJV] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

I think it was @Clete that said God doesn't lie to us, and it's for the same reason you give--we are not His enemies. But that means we recognize that lies are not good. Did Jesus really mean, "Love your enemies, bless them, do good to them, and then lie to them"?

Do not do evil that good may come of it!



They did not do evil that good would come of it, Derf!



God does not look favorably on evil, Derf!

You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness. Why do You look on those who deal treacherously, And hold Your tongue when the wicked devours A person more righteous than he? - Habakkuk 1:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk1:13&version=NKJV

Right, nor should we have a lying tongue.
[Pro 6:17 KJV] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
[Pro 10:18 KJV] He that hideth hatred [with] lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, [is] a fool.
[Pro 12:19 KJV] The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue [is] but for a moment.
[Pro 12:22 KJV] Lying lips [are] abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly [are] his delight.
[Pro 13:5 KJV] A righteous [man] hateth lying: but a wicked [man] is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
[Pro 17:7 KJV] Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.
[Pro 21:6 KJV] The getting of treasures by a lying tongue [is] a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.
[Pro 26:28 KJV] A lying tongue hateth [those that are] afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.

By saying that evil (lying) is good, in spite of having no scriptures telling us that lying is good and many saying lying is evil, detestable, abominable, you are doing the exact thing Paul warned against. Do not do evil that good may come. Your position is falsified by your position.

Either:
A) Your position: God looked favorably upon evil this one time (He chose to sendn (yes, SEND, Scripture literally says that God said, "God and do it") a lying spirit to Ahab, rather than doing something else (the "favorable" part)), OR
B) Our position: Lying is not always wrong, especially when deceiving the enemies of God!

A is false, because of the above premise, which comes directly from scripture.

B is false, as shown above. If those are our only two options, then my explanation, where God rewards the midwives and Rahab for something other than lying, is the better explanation. Your premise is based on a faulty reading of Paul's intention.

It's irrelevant, Derf!

The fact is that God commanded the spirit to go and do what the spirit proposed he would do, which was to be a lying spirit in the mouth of all Ahab's prophets.

And as I've already stated, God allowed Satan to evil to Job when he requested permission. Job blamed that stuff on God. God didn't correct him.

God does not command that evil be done!!!



Who in ANY of the scenarios was "afraid," Derf!?

Peter was afraid. Peter lied about being one of Jesus disciples. Peter lied to the enemy three times to save his life, and in effect to save countless numbers of other lives eternally. Yet I don't see you writing about how good it was for Peter to lie. Why not?

The answer is NONE OF THEM!

They ALL feared God!

Fearing God is NOT "being afraid."

Peter lied because he was afraid. Is that how we know it's ok to lie? So as long as I'm not afraid, then it's ok to lie?

Your own sentence regarding Elisha contradicts this statement.

Of things that contradict, only one of them can (not must) be true, because truth is non-contradictory!

And that doesn't mean we get to do evil!

DO NOT DO EVIL that good may come of it!



That's still no excuse to do evil!

And your position, where you assign goodness to something God calls an abomination, IS an excuse to do evil?

And as far as I can tell, Rahab was even put in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11 BECAUSE of her faith, not in spite of it!

Her faith was revealed in her request to be spared, just like the thief on the cross.

Rahab and the midwives were rewarded for their lies, nott for other things in their life. Thus your reasoning here falls short.

Supra.

 

[Derf]

But is this still relevant today? "The larger evil" is, if I'm understanding you, what you mentioned later:

There are still larger evils out there. That one in particular is easy to understand.

Since that's now over, does this mean that lying goes back to being absolutely wrong, in all cases and under all conditions? iow does this mean @Hoping has been correct all along? That even in Nazi Germany, the only obedient and holy and moral choice was to rat out hidden Ashkenazim, and just trust that God's secret hidden plan trumped the security of the absolute human rights of Ashkenazim? (Rights against being kidnapped, tortured, murdered, etc.)

The ten Booms struggled with what they were doing. They weren't really blessed for it, as far as I can see--they all died in the camps except Corrie. That doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing for them to do, of course, since we recognize that we are to lay up treasures in heaven rather than here on earth.

That made me laugh.

God is not mocked.

Yet we who still sin, but cling to the mercies of God in Christ Jesus, are regularly blessed and not cursed by Him.

 

[Derf]

Completely unresponsive waste of time to read. Nothing at all other than you repeating your position as though nothing has been said to prove it false, like the repeated quoting of God's word including where it directly quotes God Himself saying things that directly contradict your doctrine. Should we believe you or God, Derf?

What this really boils down to is one single question, to which you have consistently failed to give any sort of answer...

Why is it preferable to you to suppose that God does evil that good might result rather than simply excepting that telling a lie is sometimes a good thing to do?

Clete

Completely unresponsive waste of time to read. Nothing at all other than you repeating your position as though nothing has been said to prove it false, like the repeated quoting of God's word including where it directly quotes God Himself saying things that directly contradict your doctrine. Should we believe you or God, Clete?

You have to wonder how good your arguments are when your opponent can repeat them back verbatim and they fit just as well.

 

[Hoping]

I don't understand your question. Through one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, so it seems like the answer is "Adam".

Agreed, but I think we are straying from...whatever we were discussing. ?
Death came by Adam.
Even without sinning, people die.
Babies for instance.

That doesn't help the people that are destroyed before He uses them to make His point.

No, but that is kind of a side-track.

How can there be wickedness imputed, if the law hadn't been given yet?

Interesting conundrum.
All men are given a conscience, and God will judge how they acted relative to that.
Or, perhaps God knows they can still remember the reason for the great flood that wiped out the world for its wickedness.

Abimelech had already stolen another man's wife.

I don't know about "stolen".

He was granted mercy because he wasn't responsible for knowing Abraham had lied to him.

And it wasn't really a lie, as they were related before marriage.

The point was that he already knew it was sin to take another man's wife. How did he know, if the law had not been given yet?

Did he know it was sin?
Or did he know it was wickedness?
Or did he just know it wasn't right?

 

[Hoping]

Doesn't matter. It's still begging the question. Don't use logical fallacies.

Rhetorical questions don't need answers.

And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” - 1 Kings 22:20-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Kings22:20-23&version=NKJV
The Lord does not look favorably on evil, let alone command it be done!
Therefore, either Habakkuk was wrong (Habakkuk 1:13), or lying is not always wrong.

Perhaps Hab 1:12 can answer your question?
"...O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction."
God can and will use the wicked for His own purposes.

This is a solution in search of a problem.
If lying is not a sin, then it's irrelevant whether anyone is under the Mosaic Law.

It was a sin that wasn't imputed until God said "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." (Ex 20:16)
And..."And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not." (Ex 20:20)

 

[Clete]

Completely unresponsive waste of time to read. Nothing at all other than you repeating your position as though nothing has been said to prove it false, like the repeated quoting of God's word including where it directly quotes God Himself saying things that directly contradict your doctrine. Should we believe you or God, Clete?

You have to wonder how good your arguments are when your opponent can repeat them back verbatim and they fit just as well.

Liar. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Clete]

The only people I care anything about are actively reading this thread and so I'll just say this here....

I have to get away from this place. At least for a while.

There isn't anything happening here that's worth the time and effort that it requires and there hasn't been for a very long time. I've stuck around because I've done it for so long and for pretty much no other reason, but that just isn't enough anymore. Putting those who are intentional wastes of my time on ignore worked for quite a while but really there's less than half a dozen people here who know how to think and who give a damn about whether their doctrine makes sense or not. Most here wouldn't know a rational argument from a hole in the ground and its boring. Its boring and aggravating and no longer worth my time.

It's pretty much always been the case that most everyone on TOL has been unwilling to move an inch off their doctrine, no matter what anyone says, the difference now is that no one seems to even want to defend their beliefs with anything that resembles reason. It's just a big pack of lies and B.S. that any third grader could have seen through back when I started posting here some three decades ago. Back then, I was challenged. I had to actually know something in order to respond with substance to the positions people held back then. I had discussions that lasted for years where, even though neither party was convinced to change their minds, both parties where edified by the exchange because both sides where honest and things to say that weren't abject stupidity and that both parties could tell were substantive issues that deserved to be well thought through and aggressively hashed out. That hasn't been the case at TOL for so long that I can hardly remember the last time it happened. The asinine "debate" about whether the Earth is flat was where things really began to take a serious turn for the worse. When DFT Dave, of all people, took a nose dive into utter insanity, I knew then that something important had changed and it's gotten nothing but worse since then.

There isn't any particular reason why this thread is the thing that's made me finally say that enough is enough. Maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back and I doubt that I'll stay gone forever because, at the end of the day, I do have a real need to think through doctrinal issues and I enjoy the process of writing them out and getting some kind of feed back on my thoughts and maybe that last part is what's now missing here. All I ever seem to get is vapid stupidity from anyone and everyone who doesn't already agree with me. It just doesn't fill the bill with me any longer.

So long for now,
Clete

 

[Derf]

Agreed, but I think we are straying from...whatever we were discussing. ?
Death came by Adam.
Even without sinning, people die.
Babies for instance.

Right. But if death is the wages of sin, and babies die, then it's because of Adam's sin in some way. Maybe this will tie back in somehow...

No, but that is kind of a side-track.

Interesting conundrum.
All men are given a conscience, and God will judge how they acted relative to that.

Agreed

Or, perhaps God knows they can still remember the reason for the great flood that wiped out the world for its wickedness.

Perhaps, but what about those before the flood.

I don't know about "stolen".

And it wasn't really a lie, as they were related before marriage.

The purpose was for Abraham to save His own life at expense of Sarah's dignity, by claiming she was his sister and not his wife.

Did he know it was sin?
Or did he know it was wickedness?
Or did he just know it wasn't right?

Any of those. They seem about the same to me.

 

[Derf]

Liar. Welcome to my ignore list.

But it was for a good cause, fighting my apologetic enemy, so it's ok.

From now on, I will take your "liar" insult as a compliment and a badge of honor, expecting God to reward me. See how good I am at changing my mind?