"...the the..." lol
I hope you're happy now, Meshak - you've got poor ol PJ stuttering
Can a person loose their salvation?
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
"...the the..." lol
I hope you're happy now, Meshak - you've got poor ol PJ stuttering
"...the the..." lol
I hope you're happy now, Meshak - you've got poor ol PJ stuttering
Hello Danoh
You always make me laugh
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The subject of this thread is not about unbelievers. The question is whether or not those who are saved can lose their salvation.
And the answer is no. Once a person believes he possesses eternal life and the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will not perish.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, the reward for good deeds is eternal life ONLY if there is no sin mixed in with those good deeds. What you're looking at is before Jesus dealt with the sin problem.
You'd best move on to what the RISEN Lord revealed to Paul concerning God's Grace and the GIFT of eternal life. Romans 6:23KJV We believe unto righteousness....not perform what none of us could. Gifts aren't earned...they are freely given. Eternal life is given to those who believe.
Instead of our working to please God, we become HIS workmanship. That way man cannot boast in any good deeds because they are God's doing. They are a result of HIS work in us.
EPH. 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Lord Jesus said:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
csuguy
Well-known member
Incorrect - Paul states this well after Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 2:5-11)
Again- our deeds do not earn us Christ's sacrifice or the forgiveness for our sins. It is only through grace that we have been granted the ability to obtain eternal life. But there is no mistake - scripture is unanimous in declaring eternal life a reward for our good deeds.
csuguy
Well-known member
James 2:14-20 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Romans 2 is talking in generalities...an over view pre cross.
Paul goes on to explain in chapter 3. Notice how he refers to the "forbearance of God" ie chapter 2, and sins that are past (pre cross).
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Here we see LIFE is given to "them that believe".
Gal. 3:21-22KJV Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
And, NO, scripture is not unanimous in declaring eternal life a reward for "good deeds". Shall we start with John? Where is obey or good deeds in these verses?
John 3:15-16KJV That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
glorydaz
Well-known member
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Perseverance of The Saints vs. OSAS
Perseverance of The Saints vs. OSAS
OSAS (once-saved-always-saved) is common to Arminianism. It is sometimes associated with the attitude that now that one is saved one can go off sinning with abandon.
OSAS tends to lead to the view that there is nothing remaining for the believer in their walk of faith. Who denies that there are not a few of those that sign the pledge card or answer a Finneyistic altar call soon show themselves to be not of us for they went out of us? The reason is that the typical OSAS view, never carefully explained from the pulpit, ends up in error, such as in Keswickian Exchanged Life views that include rationales leading to licentiousness--doing whatever a person wants "now that I am saved and always will be". OSAS fosters the wrong mindset.
The doctrine of OSAS isn't the Reformed doctrine of the saint's Perseverance. But neither are they correct who embitter souls by teaching that a salvation that is actually theirs can nonetheless be forfeited by the veto-power of the human will. OSAS is a johnny-one-note doctrine that comforts the comfortable and disturbed conscience alike with a smothering salve. It usually teaches that "doubt" is the worst sin, and is the one thing that would demonstrate a lack of salvation. Thus, it offers almost nothing of genuine grace to the trembling soul; and for the casual "believer," it assists him in searing his conscience. In either case, the utmost confidence is urged in an act of the human will.
The Reformed argue that the corrosive power of sin upon genuine faith cannot hollow it out, because the source of that faith is divine, the gifts of God are without repentance, the Lord knows them that are his, no one can pluck them out of his hands, he conquers those he loves and wins them infallibly to himself, for they are elected in love and in Christ from all eternity.
In the doctrine of OSAS (eternal security), the process of justification is divorced from the process of sanctification. This arises from the belief of a libertarian free will, which therefore give Man the freedom to choose whether he or she wants to be sanctified after he/she is justified. Thus, a situation may arise where a person, after being justified before God, slips back into his old habits of sin and become a so-called carnal Christian.
The Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is much better by far. Unlike OSAS, it does not separate justification from sanctification (although both processes are distinct from each other), neither does it buy into the Arminian false premise of libertarian free will. Instead, it proclaims that all persons who are justified will also be sanctified (Rom. 5:2-11) and finally glorified (Rom. 8:30). In contradistinction to the Arminian, those who are justified do not have the 'free will' to 'resist' sanctification, though they willingly submit to it (compatibilism). Thus, those who are justified do not fall into such grievous sin so as to obscure their salvation but will finally repent. Therefore, the classical Arminian objection to Reformed Christianity falls apart with the understanding of the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. Furthermore, if there are such person who do sin grievously without any remorse, the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints also states that a person who does sin willingly and happily may not be saved after all. (1 John 2:19).
Since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. The eternal security of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is demonstrated by the persevering faith and righteousness wrought by the grace of God in His little begotten ones.
See: Isaiah 43:1-3, Jeremiah 32:40, John 3:36, John 10:28, Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 2:10 God’s workmanship, Philippians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 1:12b & 4:18, 1 Peter 1:4-5, I John 2:19, Jude 24-25.
AMR
Perseverance of The Saints vs. OSAS
Those born anew will persevere to the end and their glorification.
OSAS (once-saved-always-saved) is common to Arminianism. It is sometimes associated with the attitude that now that one is saved one can go off sinning with abandon.
OSAS tends to lead to the view that there is nothing remaining for the believer in their walk of faith. Who denies that there are not a few of those that sign the pledge card or answer a Finneyistic altar call soon show themselves to be not of us for they went out of us? The reason is that the typical OSAS view, never carefully explained from the pulpit, ends up in error, such as in Keswickian Exchanged Life views that include rationales leading to licentiousness--doing whatever a person wants "now that I am saved and always will be". OSAS fosters the wrong mindset.
The doctrine of OSAS isn't the Reformed doctrine of the saint's Perseverance. But neither are they correct who embitter souls by teaching that a salvation that is actually theirs can nonetheless be forfeited by the veto-power of the human will. OSAS is a johnny-one-note doctrine that comforts the comfortable and disturbed conscience alike with a smothering salve. It usually teaches that "doubt" is the worst sin, and is the one thing that would demonstrate a lack of salvation. Thus, it offers almost nothing of genuine grace to the trembling soul; and for the casual "believer," it assists him in searing his conscience. In either case, the utmost confidence is urged in an act of the human will.
The Reformed argue that the corrosive power of sin upon genuine faith cannot hollow it out, because the source of that faith is divine, the gifts of God are without repentance, the Lord knows them that are his, no one can pluck them out of his hands, he conquers those he loves and wins them infallibly to himself, for they are elected in love and in Christ from all eternity.
In the doctrine of OSAS (eternal security), the process of justification is divorced from the process of sanctification. This arises from the belief of a libertarian free will, which therefore give Man the freedom to choose whether he or she wants to be sanctified after he/she is justified. Thus, a situation may arise where a person, after being justified before God, slips back into his old habits of sin and become a so-called carnal Christian.
The Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is much better by far. Unlike OSAS, it does not separate justification from sanctification (although both processes are distinct from each other), neither does it buy into the Arminian false premise of libertarian free will. Instead, it proclaims that all persons who are justified will also be sanctified (Rom. 5:2-11) and finally glorified (Rom. 8:30). In contradistinction to the Arminian, those who are justified do not have the 'free will' to 'resist' sanctification, though they willingly submit to it (compatibilism). Thus, those who are justified do not fall into such grievous sin so as to obscure their salvation but will finally repent. Therefore, the classical Arminian objection to Reformed Christianity falls apart with the understanding of the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. Furthermore, if there are such person who do sin grievously without any remorse, the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints also states that a person who does sin willingly and happily may not be saved after all. (1 John 2:19).
Since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. The eternal security of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is demonstrated by the persevering faith and righteousness wrought by the grace of God in His little begotten ones.
See: Isaiah 43:1-3, Jeremiah 32:40, John 3:36, John 10:28, Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 2:10 God’s workmanship, Philippians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 1:12b & 4:18, 1 Peter 1:4-5, I John 2:19, Jude 24-25.
AMR
csuguy
Well-known member
False - Paul makes no statements to suggest Romans 2 is pre-cross. Indeed, on this section where he talks about judgement, he speaks of Christ and the gospel: "This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
This isn't a divide between chapter 2 and 3, this is a divide between what is being talked about in chapter 3 alone - the Law vs the righteousness of God manifested through faith in Jesus Christ.
You misunderstand what it means to believe in Christ: it isn't simple mental/verbal acceptance of Christ's teachings. A true believer is one who actually lives according to what Christ taught. Those who merely claim to believe but do not accompany it with works have a dead faith that cannot save - as James 2 says. Since you like John, here's a quote from that gospel on the matter:
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Notice the implication of this verse: to believe is to obey. The two go hand-in-hand. You cannot truly claim to be a believer if you do not follow what you claim to believe.
Why would God change his mind?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
James tell us here exactly how a person is born again:
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jms.1:18).
All I can see from your mindless post is your effort to prove that what is written here is in error:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).
Since no conditions were given, I said no as it applies to the Body today. That was not the case beforehand. See Saul. See Acts 5. etc etc.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you deny that OSAS is true?
We know that the Apostle John tells the Christian that he already possesses eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28). Therefore, once a person receives eternal life he will always posess that eternal life.
Yes, and it is those who are born again who receive the gift of eternal life and they cannot be unborn. They have already received the "gift" of eternal life and the LORD will not revoke or take away that gift:
"...for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).
From this we can know that once a person is saved he will always be saved!
Do you deny that?
God does not revoke his gift of life, but is our choice to ultimately accept or reject his gift.
The vast majority of people will not be called to salvation until the second resurrection.
It will be our job to teach them the way to life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When a person believes they receive the gift of eternal life. And once in possesion of that life he will always have it.
csuguy
Well-known member
To put it another way: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)
Through Christ we have been given the right to become children of God. This is contrasted against our natural birth where we had no say.
God has planted in us the Word via the Gospel of Christ, but whether that Word should prosper or die depends upon whether we persevere or fall to sin (Luke 8:4-15)
Keep reading:
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [j]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3:36)
When the scriptures speak of belief, they do not mean mere mental/verbal acknowledgement. As we see here, and as explicitly laid out in places like James 2, true belief is inseparable from acting accordingly. The one who does not will not see life.
He will always have it unless he forfeits it by rejecting the source of life.
Those not written the Lamb's book of life will not survive.
"When" is fine but "how" is the question