Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[Crucible]

There is no better way to see what the message of salvation was than to consult the men that first preached it. For example, Paul, in Romans 10, says:

9...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved (Romans 10:9-10)

This scripture (and others) plainly say that you are saved because you believe. The sentence begins with IF which introduces a conditional sentence in which the result, salvation, isdependent on the hearer's response which is faith. If anyone acts upon the condition the result (salvation) will most certainly follow or else the promise is false.

All the calls to salvation I am aware of are framed in more or less the same way. No scripture says, "search your heart to see if you feel the marks of grace. If you do then you are saved already. God does not want our faith to rest on the shifting sands of our emotions but on the sure promise of His Word. Acting on the truth is what saves a person.

Now you might say "no one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws them" and, while this is certainly true, just because the Spirit is drawing a person does not necessarily mean they will yield. There are many instances of people being strongly influenced by the Spirit to believe and surrender but they refuse. Of course, if they resist the Spirit in this manner then they end up with a hard heart which is a perilous state to be in. Nevertheless, the Bible teaches us that the Spirit, omnipotent though He is, can be resisted, quenched, and grieved by puny human beings(Acts 7:51, 1 Thessalonians 5:19, Ephesians 4:30) This is possible only because He has not chosen to overpower our wills. That is more characteristic of demons who take possession of humans like dolls, speaking out of their mouths and tossing them about without their consent. The Holy Spirit does not do this.

All you're doing is taking rigid interpretation and applying it to God.

God does not justify evil, and so He will not draw those who will reject Him. Fate is simply the reality of an omniscient and immutable god, it is something seen all the way back to St. Augustine in the 4th Century.

 

[Shasta]

All you're doing is taking rigid interpretation and applying it to God.

God does not justify evil, and so He will not draw those who will reject Him. Fate is simply the reality of an omniscient and immutable god, it is something seen all the way back to St. Augustine in the 4th Century.

Acts tells of just such a time when the gospel was preached, the Spirit exerted His influence to save and yet the people resisted. The occasion was Stephen's sermon to the Jews. Chapter 6 says

"They began to argue with Stephen, 10 but they could not stand up to his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke (Acts 6:10).

Stephen's case was coherent, convincing and anointed by the Holy Spirit so that it was essentially, undeniable. Nevertheless, his audience resisted leading Stephen to say:

51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered...(Acts 7:51-52)

Now we know that he had been speaking by the Spirit but the people would not listen. We have to ask at this point: what precisely was the Spirit influencing them to do? To be consistent we would have to say that the Spirit was trying to convince them of the truth of Stephen's message. Had they listened they would have been brought to repentance and salvation. The Spirit was certainly not influencing them to resist. Resisting the Spirit and rejecting the gospel was entirely their choice. Not only did THEY resist the Spirit but Stephen said their forefathers had done the same thing in their day.

From this example, I conclude that the Spirit is in the business of persuading men about their sin and of convincing them of the reality of Christ and His promise of salvation. The word does not say that the Holy Spirit was given the ministry of converting men unilaterally by exerting an irresistible control over our wills.

The arbitrator of what is true or not is ultimately not books of theology or our denominational creeds but the scriptures themselves. We must continue to follow the bold motto of "sola scriptura" even if it leads us to question the Reformers themselves. Martin Luther was honest enough to say "they think I am a fixed star when I am only a wandering planet."

 

[Crucible]

Acts tells of just such a time when the gospel was preached, the Spirit exerted His influence to save and yet the people resisted. The occasion was Stephen's sermon to the Jews. Chapter 6 says

"They began to argue with Stephen, 10 but they could not stand up to his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke (Acts 6:10).

Stephen's case was coherent, convincing and anointed by the Holy Spirit so that it was essentially, undeniable. Nevertheless, his audience resisted leading Stephen to say:

51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered...(Acts 7:51-52)

Now we know that he had been speaking by the Spirit but the people would not listen. We have to ask at this point: what precisely was the Spirit influencing them to do? To be consistent we would have to say that the Spirit was trying to convince them of the truth of Stephen's message. Had they listened they would have been brought to repentance and salvation. The Spirit was certainly not influencing them to resist. Resisting the Spirit and rejecting the gospel was entirely their choice. Not only did THEY resist the Spirit but Stephen said their forefathers had done the same thing in their day.

From this example, I conclude that the Spirit is in the business of persuading men about their sin and of convincing them of the reality of Christ and His promise of salvation. The word does not say that the Holy Spirit was given the ministry of converting men unilaterally by exerting an irresistible control over our wills.

The arbitrator of what is true or not is ultimately not books of theology or our denominational creeds but the scriptures themselves. We must continue to follow the bold motto of "sola scriptura" even if it leads us to question the Reformers themselves. Martin Luther was honest enough to say "they think I am a fixed star when I am only a wandering planet."

It's easy to just stick with Acts and simply discount the rest of the New Testament from interpretation- that is no doubt what MADism is- they have named their entire religion after a section of the Bible

But when you have to take into account the whole of the scriptures, you find that unless you are fine with God contradicting Himself, you must harmonize the scriptures.

~Irresistable Grace~

Daniel 4:34
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand or say to him “What have you done?”

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”


With all that, interpret:

Acts 16:14
One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

The author is not in agreement with Madism.

 

[Shasta]

[Crucible;4924106]It's easy to just stick with Acts and simply discount the rest of the New Testament from interpretation- that is no doubt what MADism is- they have named their entire religion after a section of the Bible

I do not know where you are getting this idea but I do not hold the doctrines of MAD. If you ask the MAD believers who know me you will discover that I have debated them many times. I am not basing my remarks solely on Acts. In my previous post to you I cited also 1 Thessalonians 5:19 and Ephesians 4:30 to show that even though believers are born of the Spirit they can still resist the Holy Spirit's influence.

But when you have to take into account the whole of the scriptures, you find that unless you are fine with God contradicting Himself, you must harmonize the scriptures.

I do not know what you mean about "being fine with God contradicting Himself". Did He contradict Himself when He did not judge Nineveh?

~Irresistable Grace~

Daniel 4:34
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand or say to him “What have you done?”

God does "work all things after the counsel of His will." Let us not suppose from this that the only way God gets the results He wants is by micro-managing the minds and wills of men. God can work through people if they are willing or around them if they are not or He can remove and replace them. God sometimes acts unilaterally but He seems to prefer using imperfect human agents. In the scriptures we see many accounts where God changes His will in response to people.

Jeremiah 18 shows that God can pronounce either judgment or mercy on a nation but when the people change (for better or worse) God responds by altering their destiny. Although God's nature is a constant His responses to humanity may change according to their changing disposition towards Him.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen

In this parable, those who were originally invited to the feast had a place reserved for them at the Master's table. In Calvin's paradigm we would expect that if their attendance was pre-planned, if they were called and if God WANTED them to come then surely they would come. Nevertheless, they defied the Master's wishes and refused to come. When the riff-raff heard the call they came gladly. Finally someone was found hanging around the outside who had never received an invitation. Not only that, but his garments showed he was utterly unprepared to join in the festivities. He too was rejected.

It is obvious that merely being invited to the feast did not qualify anyone to be among the "chosen." What made people the "chosen" was whether they ended up attending the feast. Of course, to get that far required an response of the will to the invitation. They would actually have to get dressed, leave their home and go to the Master's house. I do not see that any of this suggests a passive response to some lottery that is won and received involuntarily.

 

[Shasta]

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

You will have to explain what you are getting at with this scripture before I can answer it.

With all that, interpret:

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Lydia first had to pay attention to what Paul was preaching. The Holy Spirit apparently kept her attention fixed but this by itself was insufficient to save her. There is s difference between merely paying attention to the preaching and being saved by it. Of course, Lydia DID believe and was saved. We know because she was subsequently Baptized.

We do not know the intimate details of that happened in Lydia's conversion but let us look at a similar situation where Jesus is attempting to come into His people's lives.

…19 Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me (Revelation 3:20)

In this verse, Jesus stands estranged from His people and is apparently planning on disciplining them. We notice that, despite His having the right to enter, He refrains from doing so, preferring rather to wait for His people to respond and voluntarily allow Him to enter.

 

[Lon]

You are a perfect example of a religious man. Always striving, always fretting. You are troubled, but God has nothing to do with it. Calvinism is a satanic doctrine derived from the mind of a heretic. If you support it or continue in it, you will never see heaven.

:nono: It is a doctrine of realizing God is Loving, Sovereign, and All-Knowing. Anyone that comes to believe God is definitely these three, will indeed be Calvinistic if not a full-embracing Calvinist. Fact.

You rather don't study hard to show yourself a workman approved by God. If you did, you'd study more, emote on TOL less. There is little excuse for this kind of vapid relentless attacking. Where is your peace of mind that passes all understanding? Nanja is correct here, you are disturbed by the mere mention of the Sovereignty and choosing of God. I realize, to you, that looks like man has no choice. I don't believe that: We choose exactly from who and what we are. How could we choose otherwise? I think that such comforts a man and gives him/her a 'hope' that they can be saved by Grace. Such is true BUT God is the One Who pursued us. Do you or dare you deny that? You can't. :nono: Realize EXACTLY where you agree and where you disagree with me. Until then, you are settling for the thinnest of veneer knee-jerking and satisfying yourself with façade rather than depth of truth. I've chosen my words carefully for meaning here. Mull a bit over them, show you are more than an unthinking troll and actually pray and think about who God is and what Calvinists often try to explain to you.

2 Timothy 2:15

 

[Robert Pate]

:nono: It is a doctrine of realizing God is Loving, Sovereign, and All-Knowing. Anyone that comes to believe God is definitely these three, will indeed be Calvinistic if not a full-embracing Calvinist. Fact.

You rather don't study hard to show yourself a workman approved by God. If you did, you'd study more, emote on TOL less. There is little excuse for this kind of vapid relentless attacking. Where is your peace of mind that passes all understanding? Nanja is correct here, you are disturbed by the mere mention of the Sovereignty and choosing of God. I realize, to you, that looks like man has no choice. I don't believe that: We choose exactly from who and what we are. How could we choose otherwise? I think that such comforts a man and gives him/her a 'hope' that they can be saved by Grace. Such is true BUT God is the One Who pursued us. Do you or dare you deny that? You can't. :nono: Realize EXACTLY where you agree and where you disagree with me. Until then, you are settling for the thinnest of veneer knee-jerking and satisfying yourself with façade rather than depth of truth. I've chosen my words carefully for meaning here. Mull a bit over them, show you are more than an unthinking troll and actually pray and think about who God is and what Calvinists often try to explain to you.

2 Timothy 2:15

God is sovereign only within the frame work of his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature.

That leaves Calvinism out.

Calvinism is the belief that God predestinates people to hell before they are born, making God unjust.

If you don't see anything wrong with God predestinating people to hell before they are born it is because you are also an unjust person, that is void of the Holy Spirit.

 

[beloved57]

pateism teaches that sinners must first stop sinning so Christ can save them from their sins.

 

[Crucible]

God is sovereign only within the frame work of his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature.

That leaves Calvinism out.

Calvinism is the belief that God predestinates people to hell before they are born, making God unjust.

If you don't see anything wrong with God predestinating people to hell before they are born it is because you are also an unjust person, that is void of the Holy Spirit.

I have explained these things to you a thousand times over, and you just repeat it a thousand times more.

You're just a broken record, bro

 

[Crucible]

pateism teaches that sinners must first stop sinning so Christ can save them from their sins.

Anti-Calvinism is merely the practice of limiting God to puff up free will.

It is predestining God to their will by making God a moral automation lain:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

When is God Not sovereign?

When is God Not sovereign?

God is sovereign only within the frame work of his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature.

If God is sovereign "only with the frame work [sic] of...", when exactly is God not sovereign?

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

If God is sovereign "only with the frame work [sic] of...", when exactly is God not sovereign?

AMR

You Calvinist make God unjust. A just God cannot predestinate people to hell before they are born. And then you make Jesus Christ a failure. Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, not just a few Calvinist, 1 John 2:2. None of you have saving faith, you can't have all of those negative beliefs about God and his Son Jesus Christ and be saved.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Clarification Sought re: God is only sovereign in some areas

Clarification Sought re: God is only sovereign in some areas

You Calvinist make God unjust. A just God cannot predestinate people to hell before they are born. And then you make Jesus Christ a failure. Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world, not just a few Calvinist, 1 John 2:2. None of you have saving faith, you can't have all of those negative beliefs about God and his Son Jesus Christ and be saved.

Robert,

How does this answer my question? You implied God is only sovereign within some areas, thus implying He is not sovereign in others. I am seeking an explanation for your statement, or at least some clarification of possibly infelicitous wording on your part. Must your every response be vitriolic? Take a breath and actually read what I have asked.

AMR

 

[Angel4Truth]

If God is sovereign "only with the frame work [sic] of...", when exactly is God not sovereign?

AMR

Ive been trying to get an answer to how he ascertains that God cant see everything that happens.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Sometimes A More Reticent Approach Is Needed

Sometimes A More Reticent Approach Is Needed

Ive been trying to get an answer to how he ascertains that God cant see everything that happens.

I have been closely following your efforts to obtain that answer.

I think Robert is often overcome with his anti-Calvinist enthusiasm to the point of saying things that he wished he could walk back when he is later pressed for clarification. Lord knows it happens to all of us at one time or another. That said, if one is being regularly pressed for exactness based upon past statements, it should serve as a warning that being more taciturn might just be in order.

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

Robert,

How does this answer my question? You implied God is only sovereign within some areas, thus implying He is not sovereign in others. I am seeking an explanation for your statement, or at least some clarification of possibly infelicitous wording on your part. Must your every response be vitriolic? Take a breath and actually read what I have asked.

AMR

If it isn't holy, just, merciful and righteous then God has no part in it.

God is not the sinner that you think that he is

 

[Angel4Truth]

If it isn't holy, just, merciful and righteous then God has no part in it.

God is not the sinner that you think that he is

Why dont you answer his question or mine? Why do you not believe that God is Sovereign and Omniscient? What is your basis, cite scripture not opinion.

 

[Robert Pate]

Ive been trying to get an answer to how he ascertains that God cant see everything that happens.

In a sense God is through with humanity.

He sent his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2. Jesus now owns everything, the lost as well as the saved. He bought everything and everyone.

When God looks at this sinful world all that he can see is his Son Jesus Christ. If God saw this world as it is, there would be judgment and condemnation.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Robert Pate's Views of God's Omniscience

Robert Pate's Views of God's Omniscience

If it isn't holy, just, merciful and righteous then God has no part in it.

God is not the sinner that you think that he is

That is not an answer, Robert. Be specific. You have made statements that imply God is not all-knowing, for example,

You are assuming that God knows everything that is happening on the earth.

Truth of the matter is that God is very absent from what is happening on the earth.

Does God know who will believe on his Son Jesus Christ?

I don't think that he does. To give life for the sole purpose of destroying it makes God unjust and unmerciful.

This implies that there are things going on in His creation that God does not know about. Are you an open theist? For that matter, I doubt that even an open theist would claim that God is very absent from what is happening on the earth.

These statements accord with your most recent claim that God is only sovereign in certain situations.

I am simply asking, as are others, for you to expand upon these statements and offer some clear explanations in support of these naked claims. Why are you resistant to giving an account for what you are asserting?

AMR

 

[ttruscott]

I teach salvation by faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone and you call that blasphemy?

Nope, that sounds perfect but you also teach that GOD created us evil sinners by making us humans in Adam

AND

that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell but created them anyway...!!! two of the biggest blasphemies against HIS perfect loving righteousness and both are underpinnings of orthodox theology.