Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
You arent answering, you arent secure in your position on this, clearly.

Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The one with whom we have to do is Jesus Christ. All judgment has been given unto him.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Robert, Judas is suffering right now. He is not in some holding pen with all the dead hanging around. He is being tormented right now just as is the rich man in hell, being tormented (Luke 16:14-31). You have not explained your statements in light of my response.

AMR

Nope, no one is in heaven or hell yet. They are all awaiting the judgment.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
The scripture plainly tells us that Jesus has ALREADY reconciled the whole world to God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

But you are like a child in a candy store, you only pick what you like.


Remember that when you will hear Christ say to the world of the goats:

Mat. 25:41
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
That is just plain stupid.

Except it's not- it just sounds stupid to, well, people who hold to stupid doctrine :chuckle:

Examine:

=You believe that God can only do what is just; He cannot do evil of any kind, or go back on His promises.
-You believe that, by man's free will, he chooses God

The outcome of this belief is that God is an automation, and you ultimately dictate His will by your own. That means that for the sake of your free will, you have taken away God's, and made yourself a freer agent then the Creator who made you.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Do you really want God to see you in your sinful flesh?

Yes, i want truth, not lies, God saw me in my sinful flesh and died for me and washed me clean.


If he did you would disappear in a puff of smoke.
No, im still here watching you ignore scripture that is clear that says He sees all.

PS now leaving the conversation, since you arent even concerned with scripture actually states and you wont be honest when shown your error.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Remember that when you will hear Christ say to the world of the goats:

Mat. 25:41
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

If you don't come to Christ as a repentant sinner and receive his great free gift of salvation, you will be one of the goats.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Robert Pate's psychopannychia, annihilationism, and second chance at salvation

Robert Pate's psychopannychia, annihilationism, and second chance at salvation

If a persons spirit is already in heaven then why would there be a resurrection?

There is a lot of controversy concerning this.

The way I see it is, the whole person goes into the ground and the whole person is resurrected.

The Christian does not really die. He falls asleep until the resurrection.

Robert Pate said:
I have trouble with eternal punishment. I believe that the soul of the person that has rejected Christ will be destroyed in hell, but not eternally punished.

I am hoping, but don't know for sure, that in the judgment there will be another chance to accept Christ as your savior.

What ever it is, and whatever God decides, it will be right. He is the just judge of all things.

I believe that the soul will be destroyed in hell. I see little to no value in the doctrine of ECT. Why would God make someone suffer in hell for all eternity? The destruction of the soul would be eternal death and would be very painful.

Nope, no one is in heaven or hell yet. They are all awaiting the judgment.

This psychopannychia, annihilationism, and second chance at salvation is part and parcel the root of your confusion on the whole matter before us at present, Robert. You are trying to force Scripture to support your odd presuppositons, hence you have made God being less than all-knowing and even absent from His creation.

This discussion is an object lesson in what can result when a person rejects corporate assembly wherein he may be properly instructed on matters of the faith. Being a Lone Ranger quite often leads to manifest error and even heresy.

It is actually sad to see this state of your belief system exposed to the light of day, Robert.

AMR
 
Last edited:

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Except it's not- it just sounds stupid to, well, people who hold to stupid doctrine :chuckle:

Examine:

=You believe that God can only do what is just; He cannot do evil of any kind, or go back on His promises.
-You believe that, by man's free will, he chooses God

The outcome of this belief is that God is an automation, and you ultimately dictate His will by your own. That means that for the sake of your free will, you have taken away God's, and made yourself a freer agent then the Creator who made you.

If God is not just, He is not God!!! Man does choose God;

John 3:16 New International Version (NIV)

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9-13 New International Version (NIV)

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
 

flintstoned

New member
God is sovereign only within the frame work of his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature.

That leaves Calvinism out.

Calvinism is the belief that God predestinates people to hell before they are born, making God unjust.

If you don't see anything wrong with God predestinating people to hell before they are born it is because you are also an unjust person, that is void of the Holy Spirit.

Everyone is predestined for hell because we all sin. That is the just punishment for sin. It is only due to God's grace that He, out of his own good pleasure, decided to spare a people for himself.
 

Nanja

Well-known member
For all their claims that we misrepresent them, they all agree with nang who said she believes because God made her believe.

Making the cross of no effect.


The death of Christ was exclusively for God's Elect, His Sheep John 10:11, 15; His Church Eph. 5:25; His People Mat. 1:21.

They shall believe on Christ because they were chosen to belief of the Truth 2 Thes. 2:13.

Belief / Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

No other way!
 

Ask Mr. Religion

☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) &#9
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The Justice of God

The Justice of God

If God is not just, He is not God!!! Man does choose God;

Justice is that rectitude of character which leads to the treatment of others in strict accordance with their deserts.

God's justice does not differ in any respect of this attribute of God as is seen among His rational creatures. The exception is that God's justice is perfect while that of His creatures is imperfect. God's justice is impartial, the justice of His creatures is partial.

However, these differences exist in the exercise of justice, and not in justice qua justice. These differences arise from the limited knowledge, reason, and perception of right and wrong among His creatures, and from the extent to which they naturally yield to their prejudices and passions. Yet in the all-perfect being of God justice has none of these deficiencies, and must be exercised according to its strictest nature, and in every conceivable form of perfection. To all, therefore, God must deal out the most absolute justice, whatever they deserve, only what they deserve, and the full measure of their deserts.

To claim that fallen man chooses God is to claim for man a moral ability Scripture teaches us that he does not possess—Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14. If man did possess such moral ability on his own accord, there would be no need for Scripture to remind us that it is God who enables this moral ability formerly lost in the fall of Adam (e.g., Eze. 36:26; Daniel 4:34-35; John 1:13; John 15:16; Romans 9:16).

If one believes that God is dependent on human beings in any sense (either their willing or running), they are not merely Christians of a different color; they are following an essentially non-Christian and non-theistic interpretation of God's nature. Contemporary evangelical scholars such as open theists Clark Pinnock and Richard Rice realized this and called for a rejection of classical theism for just that very reason.

One of the surest ways to be confident that you are not a member of the Kingdom is to pursue a righteousness that you have created by your willpower and effort. Rather,
you are to be comforted by the fact that if you are seeking God it is because God Himself has first loved and drawn you to Himself.

AMR



 

ttruscott

Well-known member
But didn't God HATE Esau? In another thread you argued that the two brothers Jacob and Esau did not represent two nations,one chosen and the other not, but two classes of individuals, one elected to salvation and the other to destruction. If this is an accurate interpretation then God hates the non-elect. I am not suggesting that you hate them. I am saying that your God does and has since before they were even born. The Heavenly Potter's own fingers have shaped them into "vessels of wrath" so that when they pass from this life they will be in a state of moral degeneracy deserving of the destruction that He has prepared for them.

Yes, I agree with this myself but there is something missing - the reason WHY GOD hates the non-elect! To say HE created them hateful and hated them for what HE created them to be is a blasphemy against HIS loving righteousness.

I am saying that your God does [hate them] and has since before they were even born.
is only a problem if birth is their creation but IF they were created pre-earth and chose by their free will to sin so that they were born sinful when the Son of Man sowed them into the world, then where is the problem?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Yes, i want truth, not lies, God saw me in my sinful flesh and died for me and washed me clean.


No, im still here watching you ignore scripture that is clear that says He sees all.

PS now leaving the conversation, since you arent even concerned with scripture actually states and you wont be honest when shown your error.

Watch for my new article, "Why God Sees ALL THINGS in Jesus Christ" If I can I will put it on today, if not it will be tomorrow. I will back everything with scripture.
 
Top