God does not see a future that does not yet exist. He's got a plan and he will make it happen. He has not seen it having already happened.
See:
Is the Future Settled or Open? Dr. Lamerson vs. Enyart
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
See:
Is the Future Settled or Open? Dr. Lamerson vs. Enyart
No it isn't.
You don't choose God, God chooses you.
As opposed to creating a reality which He knows will fall and be full of death and damnation?
Predestination demands that God has a purpose for everything- your belief does not. Your belief is that evil was a foreseen, yet somehow accidental thing God created but is not responsible for.
That's about as flip-floppy as it gets. I've heard the pack of you try to limit God's sovereignty, say He doesn't know the future, or my favorite, purposefully blinded Himself..
I mean, come on now- the fact is this: You cannot beat Calvinism on any rational level. You HAVE to resort to fanaticism, or rely on mystery, to even begin.
And that is why the Reformation was so effective against the semi-Pelagianism of the Catholic Church.
Free will is not a consistent theme in the Bible, it's as simple as that- predestination, election, and sovereignty IS the gospel, from Job to Revelation.
How can he know what choice they've made until they make it (Ge 22:12).
lain: God does not see a future that hasn't happened yet. If he has then why not cause all believers to be born in heaven rather on this God forsaken earth? The B.I.B.L.E.--basic instructions before leaving earth. We are born, make a choice and die (Josh 24:15). Born once--die twice. Born twice--die once. Re 20:6
Nanja
Well-known member
God predestinated some to hell/wrath Rom. 9:22; And others he had Mercy upon Rom. 9:23.
Rom. 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Then HE has no idea whether HIS promise election to heaven, HIS predestination of some to be conformed to the image of his Son or whether HE really can cause all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose or even if HIS call is effective. And though HE predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, HE in fact has no idea if HE will pull this off???
Lon
Well-known member
Simplified:
All who believe all things happen only through Christ, are Calvinistic whether they realize it or not. Literally, all who believe scriptures, if they follow natural conclusions, are Calvinistic in thought. It amazes me when anyone is incredibly against Calvinism. It literally makes no sense and shows me that people aren't thinking logically. The Open Theist is perhaps the only one that actually understands this and even they are Calvinistic, just over differing issues rather than consistently. That's a different discussion but worth the mention. If you aren't an Open Theist, you are more of a Calvinist than you realize. Think about it: If God literally knows all who will be saved before they are saved, there is no sense that Redemption could apply to those not saved. It merely is a discussion about what God knows and when He knows it. It is different than fatalism, logically, though some Calvinists are also fatalistic as well. Those ones generally deny Freewill altogether. Arminians believe this btw, it is rather that they side inconsistently with an open future where God cannot logically know the future yet they believe He does, whether they know this 'mystery of God' created by the dilemma or not. We all have this blind spot in our theology it just rests on different spots than another. I believe we trade blind spots. I have no problem admitting to being reliant upon God for answers I cannot apprehend and I do see the shortcomings of each position. The Open Theist would point out that there are scriptures, that if I believe them (John 3:16 for instance) that they "make me Arminian or Open Theist without realizing it." I embrace that observation because I do believe God so Loved the world that He gave that whosoever believes in Him, would be saved, exactly as it sets. I simply believe His sacrifice could save all, but only saves those who call upon Him. Nearly every Christian agrees with me on these scriptures. It makes some of us call ourselves Arminian and others Calvinist "based upon our conclusions over these verses and how we understand them." I believe very much in sharing the gospel and Christ will all people that "God so loves." A lot of people don't think I'm very much of a Calvinist for that. I realize that also. -Lon
Calvinism is a lie--and God is still trustworthy. He's good today. He'll be good tomorrow. Ps. 52:1
No, that's double predestination.
See:
What is double predestination?
Israel's rejection and God's Justice Ro 9:14-29
"C. The example of Pharaoh (9:14–24)
1. The facts involved (9:15–18)
a. God determined to pardon sinful Israel with undeserved grace (9:15–16).
b. God determined to punish sinful Pharaoh with deserved judgment (9:17–18).
2. The fairness involved (9:14, 19–24)
a. In light of this, is God righteous? Yes! (9:14, 21–24).
(1) As a potter creates vessels, God creates nations (9:14, 21–22).
(2) As a potter controls those vessels, God controls nations (9:23–24).
b. In light of this, is man responsible? Yes! (9:19–20): As the vessels have no right to criticize the potter, the nations have no right to criticize the Lord." Willmington, H. L. (1999). The Outline Bible (Ro 9:11–20). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.
Right.
God is just, merciful and righteous in all that he does. This is why we can trust him.
No one can trust the Calvinist God because he is unjust, unmerciful and unrighteous.
Who can have faith in a God that predestinates people to hell before they are born? Not me.
If he never gave men a choice, then their complaints in hell are valid. He gives every person a choice; so, when they go to hell they get what they deserve. Deut. 32:4
Not me. :idunno: And who can live with a god in eternity like that? He wouldn't want to live with you or I either since all we'd be doing is reminding him that he's a monster.
They say, no one deserves to go to heaven so that make God just in all he does. :freak: That's nice; but, that's not who God is (1 Jn 4:8). We know him. They do not. :straight: Phil 3:10
Nanja
Well-known member
serpentdove
Nanja
Rom. 9:22-23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
Yes. God has ordained the vessels of wrath for destruction.
The same principle is spoken of in:
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
And also, those who are the "accursed" Paul speaks of in Gal. 1:8-9: "anathema":
a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G331&t=KJV
Nanja
Rom. 9:22-23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
Yes. God has ordained the vessels of wrath for destruction.
The same principle is spoken of in:
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
And also, those who are the "accursed" Paul speaks of in Gal. 1:8-9: "anathema":
a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G331&t=KJV
ttruscott
Well-known member
Nothing about Calvinism being a lie convinces me your weird doctrine is trustworthy...
ttruscott
Well-known member
[h=1] Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?[/h]
PCE: You must be already under the Promise of salvation called election to be saved once you sin. Otherwise you are condemned already.
PCE: You must be already under the Promise of salvation called election to be saved once you sin. Otherwise you are condemned already.
Lon
Well-known member
Question: If you are wrong and God is exactly like this, does that mean you are no longer a Christian and will not serve Him that way? It is VERY important, for you, to answer that. Look: If I am wrong, and God is as Arminians or Open Theists believe, I will serve God as He is, regardless of my presuppositions. You imperialize your ideas over and above 1) God and 2) His other people, whether you realize or not. It is true, Robert. You need to realize what you are doing and where your allegiance lies. Think long and hard...pray. This kind of posturing may very well have you kicking against God very God, not just Calvinists. Spend a lot more time introspecting, Robert.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I only have a minute or so, but wanted to chime in quickly on this analogy - it simply doesn't hold. You are supposing two transactions where no one I know of thinks of salvation as two transactions - just one. Redemption is a term we use in common language as well - redemption of something we have a coupon for (for example). The Reformed idea (broadly speaking) is that the transaction was accomplished long ago (Jesus was slain from the foundations of the earth, after all) for those who would be redeemed. Jesus came to redeem what He paid for and in a sense that redemption (of the body) is yet to be - the Holy Spirit being the earnest of the inheritance (the downpayment, some have said, for the final, full redemption). We have been saved, we are saved and we are being saved so that we will be saved (redeemed) in the end. But all is predicated on one transaction on the cross (which was accomplished before we were even on earth).
fishrovmen
Active member
A lot of presupposition here not supported with any Scripture. You have no Scripture to support your idea that God cannot see, nor any Scripture that states that God imputes sins that were already forgiven and don't even exist to someones account. The only Scripture you ever provided was Romans 4:8, which if left in the context it was ripped from says the opposite of what you want it to say. Yet you spend years on TOL calling out others for "supposedly" doing the very same thing.
Many things are implied in the Bible. Example would be Romans 4:8. God can and will impute sin and righteousness. Jesus is the savior of the whole world because God sees all things in Christ. Jesus is our advocate and our mediator, not God. You have not been predestinated simply because God sees all things in Christ. When it comes to the salvation of fallen man God does all things in, through and by Jesus Christ. He is before all things and by him all things consist, Colossians 1:14-19.
I agree, only one act of redemption. We don't have to become saved to get saved. We are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus, which was a one time event. This salvation becomes ours by simple child like faith in Christ and his Gospel.