Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[intojoy]

Pat must have passed out.


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[1Mind1Spirit]

First why don't you show me where that was what I meant in anything I have said to Patrick today in this thread? And if not then why are you suddenly answering for Patrick? That right there is one of those traits you were exhibiting earlier. I did indeed reference the companion passage which could have been, and still can be, read by the reftagger software provided by the forum. It is not my job to go find it for you but it is indeed your job to make sure you are correct before you end up saying things about other people that are not true. Moreover there is more than one place where the Sefer of the Upright is mentioned in the scripture and the other place speaks of the same context from the Sefer of the Upright. It is not my problem that you guys do not study the scripture in the upright way and rather prefer to ignore other scripture contexts so that you can make up your own interpretations for what you read.

 

[patrick jane]

Yes, I have indeed provided scripture, and again you speak falsely.

I just read some commentaries on Isaiah 24 and my interpretation is correct. I can't see what you're complaining about. It is speaking of God's anger and the great tribulation as I thought. So, are you making the giant leap of logic and faith by saying Isa. 24 is describing an axis and a flying spinning ball, or the the sundial or Joshua 10 is? Where's all the "globe proof" you keep screaming about. With a telescope, I still can't see it. Are you saying that before I can post scripture about the earth and the firmament that I need to know the entire Bible, so I don't "make any mistakes"?

 

[patrick jane]

Uh, yeah, I saw the Isa 24 post on the previous page and surmise that you probably also already posted the same much earlier in the thread if not multiple times. Too bad you did not read what I said. Perhaps I may start my own thread on this subject matter.

Nope, it was the first time, I think. What's it to ya? Here it is again. Can you post scripture that makes this chapter about a flying ball with a spinning axis?

Isaiah 24 - KJV -
Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lordhath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8 The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the Lord, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
15 Wherefore glorify ye the Lord in the fires, even the name of the LordGod of Israel in the isles of the sea.
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, Oinhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

The Lord does these things - Not gravity and "orbits" flying through "outer space"

 

[patrick jane]

While reading the 9 chapters of the book of Amos, these three verses stood out to me. They stand out because many people think the Day of the Lord is going to be exciting or enjoyable. I used to think so. They will be times of of great sorrow and suffering. But a happy ending for those in Christ.

Amos 5:18-20 KJV -
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Acts 2:17-22 KJV -
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Joel 2:25-32 KJV -
And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

 

[daqq]

:yawn:

 

[patrick jane]

:yawn:

Am I boring you, the all knowing scriptural guru? If you're bored then you're boring. You have an unhealthy obsession. I didn't start this thread to "teach" anybody, only to explore the possibility of an enclosed flat earth and firmament. You're dead set against that and obsessed with this thread now, acting as though I'm trying to be a Biblical scholar. Repeating posts enables more to see and make their own decisions. Haven't you studied the book more than once, thereby "repeating yourself"?

 

[patrick jane]

Psalm 104:1-6 KJV -
Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Psalm 24:1-10 KJV -
The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8 Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lordmighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.


KJV Dictionary Definition: establish

establish

ESTAB'LISH, v.t. L. stabilio; Heb. to set, fix, establish.
1. To set and fix firmly or unalterably; to settle permanently.
I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant. Gen.17.
2. To found permanently; to erect and fix or settle; as, to establish a colony or an empire.
3. To enact or decree by authority and for permanence; to ordain; to appoint; as, to establish laws, regulations, institutions, rules, ordinances, &c.
4. To settle or fix; to confirm; as, to establish a person, society or corporation, in possessions or privileges.
5. To make firm; to confirm; to ratify what has been previously set or made.
Do we then make void the law through faith?
God forbid; yea, we establish the law. Rom.3.
6. To settle or fix what is wavering, doubtful or weak; to confirm.

KJV Dictionary / E / establish

 

[patrick jane]

1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was ... - Bible.org




Proverbs 11 KJV - A false balance is abomination to the - Bible Gateway

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+11&version=KJV






Bible Verses About Walking Upright - King James Bible





upright in the bible - King James Bible

 

[patrick jane]

Psalm 96 -KJV -
[FONT=&quot]O sing unto the Lord a new song: sing unto the Lord, all the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Sing unto the Lord, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Declare his glory among the heathen, his wonders among all people.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Give unto the Lord, O ye kindreds of the people, give unto the Lordglory and strength.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come into his courts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 O worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.[/FONT]

 

[patrick jane]

Re-post: This is more about withholding the truth of the gospel but it can also apply to folks holding the truth back about evolution, truths of the Bible and the truth about what we actually live in. I'm only saying it's possible, not likely. Certain high level people in the world could know and hide the flat earth from the people of the world. These scriptures talk about that. Only a few people know everything because every organization has levels of knowledge whereas 99.5% of members or participants have no clue of the real truth. Strong evidence of God with the sun moving around the flat earth, the flat earth surround by an ice wall and thousands of miles of frozen land. God placed the sun and moon, two great lights IN the firmament, not the earth. God says the sun and moon move and have circuits to "run." Not the earth.

Romans 1:18-25 KJV - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations,and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator,who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Sherman]

You just baked a gay wedding cake


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Removed you because you were not adding to the discussion.

 

[intojoy]

Removed you because you were not adding to the discussion.

It was a metaphor


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[Derf]

I just read some commentaries on Isaiah 24 and my interpretation is correct. I can't see what you're complaining about. It is speaking of God's anger and the great tribulation as I thought. So, are you making the giant leap of logic and faith by saying Isa. 24 is describing an axis and a flying spinning ball, or the the sundial or Joshua 10 is? Where's all the "globe proof" you keep screaming about. With a telescope, I still can't see it. Are you saying that before I can post scripture about the earth and the firmament that I need to know the entire Bible, so I don't "make any mistakes"?

Matthew Henry thought Is 24 was about the upcoming invasions by Assyria and/or Nebuchadnezzar.

Are you using a telescope? what power? How much farther can you see with it horizontally versus the naked eye?

 

[patrick jane]

Matthew Henry thought Is 24 was about the upcoming invasions by Assyria and/or Nebuchadnezzar.

Are you using a telescope? what power? How much farther can you see with it horizontally versus the naked eye?

I initially liked Henry's commentaries but found he was off more than once and I seek other opinions now. I'll do some more study though. I have never had a telescope but I have some decent binoculars somewhere. What should I look at if ever have the opportunity, I may have a friend with a telescope? Again, I'm not saying there are no spherical "planets" or that our moon isn't a sphere. I question the CGI hubble rubble and all the Fake NASA "images" of "outer space."

 

[patrick jane]

Isaiah 38:5-9 KJV -
Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
6 And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria: and I will defend this city.
7 And this shall be a sign unto thee from the Lord, that the Lord will do this thing that he hath spoken;
8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.
9 The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick, and was recovered of his sickness:

Did God stop the sun similar to Joshua 10:13 KJV - ?

How is that possible in a "universe" that's flying at the speeds of hundreds and hundreds of MILLIONS of miles per hour in total combined speeds and velocities and spinning? Something else would seemingly have to stop as well, like the earth for one, and the moon as well, perhaps. These two scriptures alone make me question the "globe" model we've been spoon fed since birth. Not to mention all the other scriptures so far in this thread with more to come, that can be interpreted as us being in an enclosed flat earth and cosmos.

 

[patrick jane]

Matthew Henry thought Is 24 was about the upcoming invasions by Assyria and/or Nebuchadnezzar.

Are you using a telescope? what power? How much farther can you see with it horizontally versus the naked eye?

Here's another commentary on Isaiah 24 - the chapter I was talking about (I assume you too) similar to the one I first read, it seems to me it IS talking about the tribulation and the Day of The Lord. There are parallel verses in Revelation, I believe. This is only a short excerpt but I just read the whole thing.

Study Guide for Isaiah 24 by David Guzik - Blue Letter Bible


The earth is violently broken, the earth is split open, the earth is shaken exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut; its transgression shall be heavy upon it, and it will fall, and not rise again.
a. The earth is violently broken, the earth is split open: The Bible describes some of this judgment during the Great Tribulation (Revelation 6:13-14), and specifically mentions a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth(Revelation 16:18). No wonder Isaiah says, the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard!
3. (Isa 24:21-23) The judgment of the LORD will touch everyone.
It shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth. They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and will be shut up in the prison; after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed; for the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders, gloriously.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

On second thought....:think:

When Derf and ktoyou first posted about turning the earth upside down I thought of plowing.

But after reading and thinking about the other verses this came to mind.

The earth is cleaned and dissolved in liquification during a quake.

This less than two minute video has most of the aspects of Isaiah 24.

It seems to be describing an earth quake not a wobbling reeling(spinning) globe.

18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Here's another commentary on Isaiah 24 - the chapter I was talking about (I assume you too) similar to the one I first read, it seems to me it IS talking about the tribulation and the Day of The Lord. There are parallel verses in Revelation, I believe. This is only a short excerpt but I just read the whole thing.

Study Guide for Isaiah 24 by David Guzik - Blue Letter Bible


The earth is violently broken, the earth is split open, the earth is shaken exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut; its transgression shall be heavy upon it, and it will fall, and not rise again.
a. The earth is violently broken, the earth is split open: The Bible describes some of this judgment during the Great Tribulation (Revelation 6:13-14), and specifically mentions a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth(Revelation 16:18). No wonder Isaiah says, the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard!
3. (Isa 24:21-23) The judgment of the LORD will touch everyone.
It shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth. They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and will be shut up in the prison; after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed; for the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders, gloriously.

The video is definitely on a smaller scale than what the great tribulation would look like. :thumb:

 

[Derf]

Here's another commentary on Isaiah 24 - the chapter I was talking about (I assume you too) similar to the one I first read, it seems to me it IS talking about the tribulation and the Day of The Lord. There are parallel verses in Revelation, I believe. This is only a short excerpt but I just read the whole thing.

Study Guide for Isaiah 24 by David Guzik - Blue Letter Bible


The earth is violently broken, the earth is split open, the earth is shaken exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut; its transgression shall be heavy upon it, and it will fall, and not rise again.
a. The earth is violently broken, the earth is split open: The Bible describes some of this judgment during the Great Tribulation (Revelation 6:13-14), and specifically mentions a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth(Revelation 16:18). No wonder Isaiah says, the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard!
3. (Isa 24:21-23) The judgment of the LORD will touch everyone.
It shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth. They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and will be shut up in the prison; after many days they will be punished. Then the moon will be disgraced and the sun ashamed; for the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders, gloriously.

I don't agree with Henry on everything. But the context of Is 24 is more suggestive of the more local effects. Henry talks some about the same word used for "earth" and "land", suggesting that it really does probably mean more than just the land of Israel or the land of a single nation. But then he said it was talking most likely about the Assyrian or Babylonian invasions.

My point is that much of the prophecies are colorful language that could symbolize, rather than verbalize, what's going to happen. If the "earth will be shaken", that doesn't necessarily mean the whole earth, and it might not always mean there will be an earthquake, just like the world wasn't really turned upside down by the spread of the gospel, as in Acts 17:6. Could Acts 17:6 refer to the same thing as Is 24:1?

Guzik equates the two passages, and maybe that's appropriate, but if the Isaiah passages were originally intended for the audience that first received them, then they must have also had a more immediate fulfillment, even if they also were intended for our time and more remote fulfillment. (I have a thread where I discuss more immediate vs remote fulfillment of prophecies. It seems to me that if the purpose of a prophecy is to get people to repent prior to an imminent threat, the efficiency of the prophecy is highly decreased over time.

Guzik seems to presume his own interpretation is correct and builds on what that means. This is what we are all struggling with in the flat earth discussion. We presume a model from which to interpret the bible. In some instances that isn't a bad thing to do. But if we get anything wrong in our model, it's hard to go back and fix just that part--we tend to need to start over completely, like when you botch a sudoku puzzle and don't realize for awhile.

I think I see this "starting over" aspect of the flat earth movement. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be bad if we then presume we know the whole truth when we are seeing it for the first time.