ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Philetus

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Without going into exhaustive detail, my inclination is that incompatibilistic, libertarian freedom will win the day over confusing compatibilism. If you tweak hyper-sovereignty, you can retain genuine freedom. If you retain hyper-sovereignty, you must water-down genuine freedom. The way to have our cake and eat it to (not to mention resolve the sovereignty vs free will tension) is to have a right understanding of sovereignty and freedom. The two motif theme (God settles some vs all of history) also is part of the solution.

I still maintain that an omnicompetent God simply does not need to be omnicausal to be sovereign over the universe (He could have been a settled God/method, but the evidence is that He chose otherwise to preserve love, relationship, and freedom..is that a bad thing? No. Is it risk-free? No. Will there be victory in the end? Yes).

No amount of 'tweaking' will ever erase the flawed starting premise of the closed view. "Tweak" is a gracious understatement for all the twisting and adjusting they have to do to not deal with their flawed starting point. God is living, dynamic and able not unmoved.
 

Philetus

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This is such a common error and unacceptable accusation made against Calvinism.

Only the philosophical concept of fatalism is formed bereft of any epistemological basis.

Calvinism is a theology that incorporates and stands upon the strongest form of epistemology.


Hey, Nang. Welcome back.
What's that exactly?:dizzy:
"Thinking themselves to be wise they 'tweaked' their knowledge but remained fools by rejecting the truth about God and retaining a tweaked lie."

Missed ya,
Philetus
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Hey, Nang. Welcome back.
What's that exactly?:dizzy:


Hey, thanks for the welcome (I think).

The "strongest" form of epistemology is learning from the Word of God.



"Thinking themselves to be wise they 'tweaked' their knowledge but remained fools by rejecting the truth about God and retaining a tweaked lie."

Missed ya,
Philetus

Thanks, again, and in exchange for your kind words, I will let you in on a secret . . .

Not all Calvinists are "compatabilists."

Nang
 

Philetus

New member
Hey, thanks for the welcome (I think).

The "strongest" form of epistemology is learning from the Word of God.





Thanks, again, and in exchange for your kind words, I will let you in on a secret . . .

Not all Calvinists are "compatabilists."

Nang

Honestly, I missed you. And don't take the 'theological jousting' personally. Hard words ... not a hard heart ... So let'er-rip. It's OK!

"Compatabilism' is just one form of 'tweaking'. I know you think we have tweaked the heck out of classical theism. I'm hard core ... so I think we (even Open Theists) have only begun to realize how far reaching the implications are. I'm whole-hog because if there are flaws I want to see them. (I think the biggest flaw remains that many open theists are yet unwilling or unable to truly take the position to its end. I'm not even sure what that means entirely but I'm willing to risk being wrong to get there.)

So ...

Your epistemology starts exactly where the world’s starts: a claim that God is distant and (for the most part) unknowable. Open Theists acknowledge that at least partial knowledge of God can be gleaned through observation of the nature of creation. And without denying the validity of such knowledge, Open Theism also acknowledges that what God has revealed through the Bible (all of it) and the incarnation of The Word (Jesus Christ) and the present work of Holy Spirit, much, much more can be seen than just our assumptions from creation; true and accurate things! Open Theism sees no contradiction in any of it. Your starting place is ‘immutability’ and you either have to dismiss some of what God has said/revealed/demonstrated of His activity in the world and ‘adjust’ the rest through imaginative ‘tweaking’ in order to preserve your starting place rather than start over with the truth about God. I think you need to go back to square one, repent and ask God through the Spirit to guide you into all truth. :think:
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Honestly, I missed you. And don't take the 'theological jousting' personally. Hard words ... not a hard heart ... So let'er-rip. It's OK!

"Compatabilism' is just one form of 'tweaking'.

Unfortunately, I must agree.



I know you think we have tweaked the heck out of classical theism. I'm hard core ... so I think we (even Open Theists) have only begun to realize how far reaching the implications are. I'm whole-hog because if there are flaws I want to see them. (I think the biggest flaw remains that many open theists are yet unwilling or unable to truly take the position to its end. I'm not even sure what that means entirely but I'm willing to risk being wrong to get there.)

This is why I am not a compatabilist, for it is a logically untenable position for the Calvinist. And I believe the OVT denial of absolute divine sovereignty is also a logically untenable position.

So ...

Your epistemology starts exactly where the world’s starts: a claim that God is distant and (for the most part) unknowable.

I don't know why you come to that conclusion. I am not a pagan, so I do not hold a frame of reference anywhere close to being "worldly." And I am not a Van Tillian, so my theology does not come close to teaching the error that God is "unknowable."

I believe God is transcendent and cannot be known exhaustively by finite creatures, but what God has revealed in His Word is 100% knowable, and indeed is the sole basis for Christian epistemology and soteriology.

Open Theists acknowledge that at least partial knowledge of God can be gleaned through observation of the nature of creation.

No argument. Indeed, the Godhead is revealed in all creation. This natural witness and knowledge of God does not lead to salvation, however.



And without denying the validity of such knowledge, Open Theism also acknowledges that what God has revealed through the Bible (all of it) and the incarnation of The Word (Jesus Christ) and the present work of Holy Spirit, much, much more can be seen than just our assumptions from creation; true and accurate things!

Agreed.



Open Theism sees no contradiction in any of it. Your starting place is ‘immutability’

You are accepting that as fact, according to what others have told you. While I hold to Godly immutability, it did not come close to being my "starting place." Frankly, one needs to spend years studying the word of God, and learning about all the attributes of God, before one forms a position on "immutability."



and you either have to dismiss some of what God has said/revealed/demonstrated of His activity in the world and ‘adjust’ the rest through imaginative ‘tweaking’ in order to preserve your starting place rather than start over with the truth about God. I think you need to go back to square one, repent and ask God through the Spirit to guide you into all truth. :think:

Well, since your premise is in error, here, I will reject the advice.

Try again . . .

Nang
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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You repeat this and similar posts so often it is becoming a cliché. Let's deconstruct this pat answer you like to toss about (like so much other boilerplate at your disposal).

I think by now that you know that I believe that God has
(1) foreordained all events, therefore God knows the future perfectly;
(2) thus every action in the future is a certainty; and
(3) therefore all future actions, including free, moral decisions of God's creatures, must be what they unequivocably will be—otherwise God could not perfectly know what they will be.

Without going into exhaustive detail, my inclination is that incompatibilistic, libertarian freedom will win the day over confusing compatibilism.

I know that Arminians (and their cousins) will deny the first premise. But that is not the issue. The issue we are discussing your oft-used phraseology cast as if that is the end of the matter. Compatibilism (soft-determinism) says that our notions of freedom are not absolute freedom, for no one has absolute freedom. Therefore, when speaking of 'freedom' we need to define our terms. Depite what some in this thread like to shrilly state, there are agreements on what 'freedom' means amongst theologians. In one camp, I believe yours, 'freedom' is the ability to do otherwise from what one does. (Again, this is not the issue we are discussing.) In my camp, 'freedom' means to choose according to one's greatest inclinations of the moment of choosing. Consequently, for my camp there is only one possible course of action for me and I 'freely' chooses that course of action. In other words, that I chose what I wanted to choose (my desires at the moment) and that God is orchestrating my choosing directly or indirectly, is irrelevant given the terms I have used. My 'freedom' and God's foreknowledge are compatible, hence the term compatibilism. Now you can pick a bone with me about whether or not you agree with the terms (since we are in two camps), but again that is not the issue. The issue is that there is no basis for your statement above that compatibilism is "confusing". What you are doing when you post these templated statements that belie undisputed validity is practicing an intellectual shell game.

If you tweak hyper-sovereignty, you can retain genuine freedom. If you retain hyper-sovereignty, you must water-down genuine freedom.
Here you use "hyper-sovereignty", a term that can only be meant to be pejorative. For you and I both know that there is a commonly understanding about the word 'sovereignty'. Yet you choose to cast the word that I know you learned in seminary, in a negative light to pander to the crowd. "Hyper" sovereignty? Come on, GR! Why did you not simply state, "if you tweak the common understanding of sovereignty, you can..."? The reason you did not do this is that somewhere deep inside you there is a resistance to just give any due to traditional understandings of the terms we both have learned. Rather you want to cast what you are advocating (sovereignty is not micro-management) as mainstream, while the traditional understandings of words and terms is suddenly made aberrant. So, you distinguish 'hyper-sovereignty' from 'sovereignty', implying so cleverly that the former is something strange, while the plain old sovereignty word has been understood for ages. For someone who spends so much time correcting the practices of the Mormons and JWs, I find it inexplicable that you do not recognize when you are doing the very same thing.

The way to have our cake and eat it to (not to mention resolve the sovereignty vs free will tension) is to have a right understanding of sovereignty and freedom.
This statement should have been your opener before the statement immediately above. Here you make no clever additions to the terms.

The two motif theme (God settles some vs all of history) also is part of the solution.
You really, really, like the word 'motif'. Why? There is nothing dominant nor centralized to the two items unless you place them in some context. Why not just state 'the two themes' versus elevating the two items to an implied elegance of thinking? And by the way, 'motif theme' is redundant.

I still maintain that an omnicompetent God simply does not need to be omnicausal to be sovereign over the universe
Finally we come to two of your really favorite words, tossed about whenever the door is even slightly ajar. It is rare that you will just use the proper term, omnipotent, and then take the brief time to simply state that you are holding to a different understanding of the word. So what exactly is an omnicompetent God? Hold on a moment and I will ask Clete to look up the definition in his very fine dictionary. "having the capacity to handle any situation". Thanks, Clete! GR, using the 'omnicompetent' over the clearly understood term for one of God's attributes is just another shell game. Notice here how you do not enclose "sovereign" in quotes, for you have already, ever so craftily, cast your sovereignty as the, ahem, 'normally' understood term as explained earlier.

After walking myself through your post and reviewing the many other standard templates you repeatedly use to reply to posts I have concluded that you are not to be taken lightly, for you very purposefully and cunningly craft your words that easily ensnare the unsuspecting. It is only after much back and forth, "what do you mean here?", "how do you define this?", etc. that one is able to construct an accurate picture of what you really mean, just like those other folks mentioned above. You are better than this and it troubles me to see you engage in this deception.
 
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Philetus

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Unfortunately, I must agree.

This is why I am not a compatabilist, for it is a logically untenable position for the Calvinist. And I believe the OVT denial of absolute divine sovereignty is also a logically untenable position.


We don’t deny absolute divine sovereignty. We believe ‘absolute’ includes God’s ability to rule over His own attributes. So you can say you don’t buy our understanding of it but you can not say we deny it. What we deny is Aristotelian immutability and denial of God’s ability to change, adjust and move. Hence the term: “Most Moved Mover”.

Being compatabilist isn’t even a necessary consideration in Open Theism. It doesn’t even have to enter our thinking. It is only necessary to preserve the “unmoved mover’s” involvement with the universe. So I guess we agree ... it’s absurd.

What Open Theists are taking issue with when we toss around the term ‘meticulous control’ of every detail of human history is that it rules out any real freedom for anyone to make any choices at all in the present (whether an eternal now or a passing moment) that shapes the future in any way whether mundane or significantly and we don’t find that in the scripture. I believe in ‘absolute divine sovereignty’ but also that God has given dominion over creation to humankind. God has given us a real ‘say so’ over how we live our lives. God doesn’t live our lives for us.

I don't know why you come to that conclusion. I am not a pagan, so I do not hold a frame of reference anywhere close to being "worldly." And I am not a Van Tillian, so my theology does not come close to teaching the error that God is "unknowable."

I believe God is transcendent and cannot be known exhaustively by finite creatures, but what God has revealed in His Word is 100% knowable, and indeed is the sole basis for Christian epistemology and soteriology.

I didn’t say you were a pagan! Honestly. I didn’t even mean to imply you were worldly. But I do think you stop short of taking ALL the bible says about God and His involvement in and with the world into consideration and usually beg off by saying something like if it don’t stack up with transcendence then it is just a mystery or the bible didn’t really mean to say that. I said your starting place is the same as though the bible has nothing to say that challenges knowledge as seemingly limited as yours: you start with a distant, unmoved, unmovable God and force everything else to fit that. You even seem to rule out the experience of the Holy Spirit in the above. (I know you don’t.) But, without the relationship and illumination of the Spirit the bible is just another word game book.

No argument. Indeed, the Godhead is revealed in all creation. This natural witness and knowledge of God does not lead to salvation, however.

I agree. But such knowledge with the help of Holy Spirit can prepare the hearts and minds of the wretched (I didn’t say wicked necessarily) to receive the Gospel. That is I believe one way God is at work even in the world today. Peter did quote Joel as saying “I will pour out my Spirit on ALL flesh”; something the church has a tendency to overlook so it can continue to lay claim to God’s grace and continue to broker it.



You are accepting that as fact, according to what others have told you. While I hold to Godly immutability, it did not come close to being my "starting place." Frankly, one needs to spend years studying the word of God, and learning about all the attributes of God, before one forms a position on "immutability."



Well, since your premise is in error, here, I will reject the advice.

Try again . . .

Nang
That's fair.

I agree … so now that we have both devoted much of our lives to the study of scripture and honestly sought God out on this, what have we learned about “immutability”? At least that it is a point of contention over how we read the Bible.


As for the advice ... it is really just about the same thing you said to me early on in this thread. And my response was no different than yours. :) Are we getting anywhere. Are we at least getting past our denials and accusations?

Hope so.

Philetus
 

Philetus

New member
OK...Transformation, Reformation, not tweaking.
:crackup:

Talk about shell game: AMR's attempt to shame you for messing with his treasured redefinitions after all the words his 'tradition' has made up to defend his starting point. What a hoot.

If there is such a thing as a "compatabilist" God must be OMINCOMPETENT to deal with them.:) In fact AMR is the best argument for God's OMNICOMPETENCE since Hilston. Kinda makes ya miss him ... :think: ... naw.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
We don’t deny absolute divine sovereignty. We believe ‘absolute’ includes God’s ability to rule over His own attributes. So you can say you don’t buy our understanding of it but you can not say we deny it. What we deny is Aristotelian immutability and denial of God’s ability to change, adjust and move. Hence the term: “Most Moved Mover”.

Fine. Deny any and all the philosophers you choose. They are rarely correct, I agree.



What Open Theists are taking issue with when we toss around the term ‘meticulous control’ of every detail of human history is that it rules out any real freedom for anyone to make any choices at all in the present (whether an eternal now or a passing moment) that shapes the future in any way whether mundane or significantly and we don’t find that in the scripture.

Surprise! I agree again, in that I believe God made man in His image, to have secondary cause and effect through God-given moral agency (will).

Man most definitely has exercised his will to effect this world . . .Romans 5:12




I believe in ‘absolute divine sovereignty’ but also that God has given dominion over creation to humankind. God has given us a real ‘say so’ over how we live our lives. God doesn’t live our lives for us.

Agreed, again! However, our dominion responsibilities never gave us the freedom to go against God, or His Word, or His will, nor His creation, to harm or destroy . . .but that is what Adam, as our representative and federal head, did indeed.

IOW's God gave all men the freedom to live according to His good Law and order, but God never gave man the freedom to oppose His good Law and order. At least, without natural and just and most holy consequence.



I do think you stop short of taking ALL the bible says about God and His involvement in and with the world into consideration and usually beg off by saying something like if it don’t stack up with transcendence then it is just a mystery or the bible didn’t really mean to say that.

With all due respect, Philetus, you can go back and do a search of all my posts, and you will not find any reference from me as to "mystery" or denial of biblical statements of truth. I have decided that if I truly hold to the Reformed faith, that I must be able to give answer to every Scripture, with Scripture, letting Scripture interpret itself, without resorting to (what I consider a spiritual "cop-out") the excuse of "mystery."

I am of the Gordon Clark school of Godly reason . . .and not from the Van Tillan school of mysticism.

Are we getting anywhere. Are we at least getting past our denials and accusations?

Hope so.

Philetus

Hopefully we will get past some built-in misconceptions of each others' views, if nothing else.

Nang
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
It's interesting to me that the Calvinists have been reduced to "Theologians have always believed..." and "Philosophers have said that.." and "The historical church says that..." as though these things are infallible to the Protestant.

Martin Luther disagreed with the theologians of his day. Calvin had disputes with the theologians of his day. Yet, these are held as the ones who "the church has always believed...."

Philosophers never agree with one another. It's how they make their living.

I also find it odd that they've stopped using Scripture to support their cases.

It's almost as though they're saying "This is what we've always believed...." Like their tradition trumps Scripture.. Hmm....

Muz
 

Lighthouse

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How is it that you say him being preordained negates the process that brought him there? If someone is preordained to be born on a particular day, I'm pretty sure his mother would remember "the process!"
Not only was the knowing preordained, but everything before then, correct? That means that even the supposed learning was preordained, and therefore the child never actually learned, he was just programmed to go through the motions that appeared as learning.
 

patman

Active member
:crackup:

Talk about shell game: AMR's attempt to shame you for messing with his treasured redefinitions after all the words his 'tradition' has made up to defend his starting point. What a hoot.

If there is such a thing as a "compatabilist" God must be OMINCOMPETENT to deal with them.:) In fact AMR is the best argument for God's OMNICOMPETENCE since Hilston. Kinda makes ya miss him ... :think: ... naw.

Careful, P.

You ever heard of the phrase "speak of the devil?"

:devil:

Cue Hilston in 5....4........3...........2............
 
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Nathon Detroit

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This is why I am not a compatabilist, for it is a logically untenable position for the Calvinist. And I believe the OVT denial of absolute divine sovereignty is also a logically untenable position.
Nang, very good!

I have gained new respect for you.
:up:

While we disagree on the overall issue of the future being settled or not, I am encouraged that you have a consistent view and admit that compatabilism is illogical within a settled view.
 

dale

New member
Not only was the knowing preordained, but everything before then, correct? That means that even the supposed learning was preordained, and therefore the child never actually learned, he was just programmed to go through the motions that appeared as learning.

Huh... the learning was preordained, but he didn't learn? And the reason he didn't learn was because it was preordained? Are you yankin' my chain?
 

Philetus

New member
Fine. Deny any and all the philosophers you choose. They are rarely correct, I agree.


:chuckle:
That's a loaded and tempting statement. Maybe we could start with Augustine's foundational philosophical views. ..... pass ...

Surprise! I agree again, in that I believe God made man in His image, to have secondary cause and effect through God-given moral agency (will).

Man most definitely has exercised his will to effect this world . . .Romans 5:12

Agreed, again! However, our dominion responsibilities never gave us the freedom to go against God, or His Word, or His will, nor His creation, to harm or destroy . . .but that is what Adam, as our representative and federal head, did indeed.

Sounds a little compatibilistic to me. Then maybe I don't quite understand the concept. Isn't that what Satan also did and does (steal, kill and destroy)? Isn't that what Eve did before Adam even thought about it? (men can be so slow:D ) Isn't that what human kind has been doing ever since? Isn't that what we all also do when we sin (or sinned)?

IOW's God gave all men the freedom to live according to His good Law and order, but God never gave man the freedom to oppose His good Law and order. At least, without natural and just and most holy consequence.
I take it you mean: At least NOT without natural and just and most holy consequence. (I trust I'm reading that correctly.) There are indeed consequences!
Of course there are consequences which brings up the whole issue of contingencies. Are there consequences/contingencies if we don't sin that are different than if we do sin? "If you eat you will die" isn't the same as "when you eat, I will kill you". I think that is significant. To say that God gives genuine freedom that includes the freedom to go against His holy will is not the same as saying that HE APPROVES IT. GOD neither approves of sin nor does God cause it! God allows it. WE do it knowing its just penalty!

Given your statements (in bold) in the quotes above:
where does sin and lawlessness come from if not from man's exercising his God given freedom? That's where we seem to always hang up. If it isn't 'freedom' miss used to go against God ... what is SIN? If there are not real consequence for our choices then are there really any choices for us to make? IF Adam did what you just said God given freedom didn't allow for, then who could possibly sin? That just doesn't make sense to me but I'm honestly trying to understand.

With all due respect, Philetus, you can go back and do a search of all my posts, and you will not find any reference from me as to "mystery" or denial of biblical statements of truth. I have decided that if I truly hold to the Reformed faith, that I must be able to give answer to every Scripture, with Scripture, letting Scripture interpret itself, without resorting to (what I consider a spiritual "cop-out") the excuse of "mystery."

I am of the Gordon Clark school of Godly reason . . .and not from the Van Tillan school of mysticism.
Clark/Van Tillan/Pinnock/Boyd ... who cares? I'm interested in what you think/believe and why.

So what do you do with the statement after the Pharisee's party at Simon's house where Jesus says to the woman who had lived a life of sin ... "Your faith has saved you." NIV

Luke 7:48 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49 The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." NIV​

Who sinned? The woman? Of her own volition? Or was God the agent of cause by virtue of His 'absolute sovereignty' over her will? Did her faith have anything to do with her salvation? In your view; are we talking about first and secondary causes here? If so isn't it a matter of semantics and if so, which is easer to explain to the lost or the saved for that matter? Is it really a matter of forcing the scripture into an explanation that isn't necessary?

I'm not just trying to be clever or crafty. I'm honestly trying to voice my frustration with Calvinism without all the barbs. (Admittedly, not easy for me.) I'm trying to understand where YOU are coming from and being careful not to lump you into a general group that happens to be in opposition to OV on this thread.


Hopefully we will get past some built-in misconceptions of each others' views, if nothing else.

Nang

Thanks, Me too.
P

I'm leaving in the AM and don't know if I will have a chance to be online again before Monday, so don't think your reply isn't important to me. It is.
 
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