ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Jerry Shugart]

John Calvin on Malachi 1:2:

We now see what I have just referred to, -- that the Jews are reminded of God's gratuitous covenant, that they might cease to excuse their wickedness in having misused this singular favor. He does not then upbraid them here, because they had been as other men created by God, because God caused his sun to shine on them, because they were supplied with food from the earth; but he says, that they had been preferred to other people, not on account of their own merit, but because it had pleased God to choose their father Jacob.

Calvinist John Gill on Mal 1:3::

Verse 3. And I hated Esau... Or, "rejected" him, as the Targum; did not love him as Jacob: this was a negative, not positive hatred; it is true of him, personally considered; not only by taking away the birthright and blessing from him, which he despised; but by denying him his special grace, leaving him in his sins, and to his lusts, so that he became a profane person; shared not in the grace of God here, and had no part in the eternal inheritance with the saints in light; and likewise it is true of his posterity, as the following instances show.

At least some Calvinists hesitate and examine to see if there is another meaning of the Greek word translated "hate" at Romans 9:13 and Malachi 1:3 before they are willing to proclaim that God loves the elect and [/b]hates[/b] all other men.

 

[ChristisKing]

John Calvin on Malachi 1:2:

We now see what I have just referred to, -- that the Jews are reminded of God's gratuitous covenant, that they might cease to excuse their wickedness in having misused this singular favor. He does not then upbraid them here, because they had been as other men created by God, because God caused his sun to shine on them, because they were supplied with food from the earth; but he says, that they had been preferred to other people, not on account of their own merit, but because it had pleased God to choose their father Jacob.

Calvinist John Gill on Mal 1:3::

Verse 3. And I hated Esau... Or, "rejected" him, as the Targum; did not love him as Jacob: this was a negative, not positive hatred; it is true of him, personally considered; not only by taking away the birthright and blessing from him, which he despised; but by denying him his special grace, leaving him in his sins, and to his lusts, so that he became a profane person; shared not in the grace of God here, and had no part in the eternal inheritance with the saints in light; and likewise it is true of his posterity, as the following instances show.

At least some Calvinists hesitate and examine to see if there is another meaning of the Greek word translated "hate" at Romans 9:13 and Malachi 1:3 before they are willing to proclaim that God loves the elect and [/b]hates[/b] all other men.

Oh I see, you can't refute Scripture with Scripture so you run to Calvin and Gill?

Well you'll find no rest there:

Calvin:

ROM 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Here follows the conclusion of both parts; which can by no means be understood as being the language of any other but of the Apostle; for he immediately addresses an opponent, and adduces what might have been objected by an opposite party. There is therefore no doubt but that Paul, as we have already reminded you, speaks these things in his own person, namely, that God, according to his own will, favors with mercy them whom he pleases, and :unsheathes the severity of his judgment against whomsoever it seemeth him good. That our mind may be satisfied with the difference which exists between the elect and the reprobate, and may not inquire for any cause higher than the divine will, his purpose was to convince us of this — that it seems good to God to illuminate some that they may be saved, and to blind others that they may perish: for we ought particularly to notice these words, to whom he wills, and, whom he wills: beyond this he allows us not to proceed.

But the word hardens, when applied to God in Scripture, means not only permission, (as some washy moderators would have it,) but also the operation of the wrath of God: for all those external things, which lead to the blinding of the reprobate, are the, instruments of his wrath; and Satan himself, who works inwardly with great power, is so far his minister, that he acts not, but by his command.

Or is this where you part with Mr. Calvin?

Shall we go to Gill then?

ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

This is produced, in favour of special, particular, and personal election, and to clear it from any charge of unrighteousness; and by it, it appears, that God bestows his grace and mercy in time, on such persons he has willed and determined from all eternity to bestow it; this, is clear from hence, for since all this is dependent on his will, it must be as this was his will from eternity, seeing no new will can possibly arise in God, God wills nothing in time, but what he willed before time; that this grace and mercy are shown only to some persons, and that the only reason of this is his sovereign will and pleasure, and not the works and merits of men; wherefore since this grace and mercy rise out of his own free good will and pleasure, and are by no means the creature's due, it most clearly follows, that God in determining to bestow his grace and mercy, and in the actual doing of it, whilst he determines to deny it, and does deny it to others, cannot possibly be chargeable with any unrighteousness.

Can't stay with Gill any more?

Well, where will you run to now?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

ChristisKing,

You say:

Oh I see, you can't refute Scripture with Scripture so you run to Calvin and Gill?

I have already used Scripture to prove that the word translated "hate" can mean to love less,but you had nothing to say about that.Here it is again:

The same Greek word that is translated "hate" at Romans 9:13 is also translated "hate" in the following verse:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple"(Lk.14:26).

According to the definition that you want to always place on the Greek word then we must part company with our common sense and imagine that the Lord Jesus is saying that we cannot be His disciple unless we hate ourselves and our mother and father and wife and children.

Is that what you think that the Lord Jesus is saying,ChristisKing?

Of course to us who believe that there is no unrighteousness in God we can understand that He is saying that we cannot be His disciple unless we love Him more than ourselves and our family.

Here is the meaning of the Geek word translated "hate" at Romans 9:13:

"Ro. ix. 13,the signification to love less,to postpone in love or esteem,to slight"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

Of course to us who believe that there is no unrighteousness in God we can understand that He is saying that we cannot be His disciple unless we love Him more than ourselves and our family.
I have quoted the words of the Lord Jesus to demonstrate that the word can mean "love less".I have also given the definition provided by a Greek expert and I have given the meanings provided by John Calvin and John Gill.

And all you can do is to quote something from John Calvin and John Gill where there is absolutely no mention of the word we are discussing.Now please answer my question.

Do you think that before a person can become a disciple of Jesus Christ they must hate themselves and hate their mother and father and wife and children?

A "yes" or "no" will be sufficient.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

Do you think that before a person can become a disciple of Jesus Christ they must hate themselves and hate their mother and father and wife and children?

A "yes" or "no" will be sufficient.

Sure, be happy to, after you address this more specific Scriptural definition of hating Esau:

MAL 1:3 And I hated Esau,and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

MAL 1:4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Is this the hatred the Lord Jesus wants us to hate our parents with Jerry?

A simple yes, or no will do... :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is this the hatred the Lord Jesus wants us to hate our parents with Jerry?

A simple yes, or no will do...

ChrisisKing,

I have already answered that question.In order to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus we are to love Him more than ourselves and more than our own families.We are not to "hate" our family and ourselves.So the answer to your question is that we are not to hate our parents at all.

Now answer my question in regard to the following verse:

""If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple"(Lk.14:26).

Do you think that before a person can become a disciple of Jesus Christ they must hate themselves and hate their mother and father and wife and children?

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

ChrisisKing,

I have already answered that question.In order to be a disciple of the Lord Jesus we are to love Him more than ourselves and more than our own families.We are not to "hate" our family and ourselves.So the answer to your question is that we are not to hate our parents at all.

Now answer my question in regard to the following verse:

""If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple"(Lk.14:26).

Do you think that before a person can become a disciple of Jesus Christ they must hate themselves and hate their mother and father and wife and children?

You haven't addressed the issue yet, but I will still answer your question:

Yes, but we should not lay their "mountains and heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness," nor should we "throw down" everything they build, nor should we be "indignate against them forever" like the Lord hated Esau.

Don't you agree?

 

[Clete]

You haven't addressed the issue yet, but I will still answer your question:

Yes, but we should not lay their "mountains and heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness," nor should we "throw down" everything they build, nor should we be "indignate against them forever" like the Lord hated Esau.

Don't you agree?

I love this! Not a more eloquent argument against Calvinism could possibly be made. It is incredible the lengths one must go to in order to maintain their ridiculous theology! To anyone with half a brain this single post should be more than enough to prove once and for all that Calvinism is heresy. What’s more is CiK’s silly attempt to qualify his affirmative response to Jerry’s question is proof that even he knows, if only intuitively, that it is foolishness.

Congratulations Jerry! What a stunning victory in the fight against the lie of Calvinism. :thumb:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

It would help if CIK looked into the Jewish idiom and comparison.

"Literally hating one's family would have been a violation of the Law. Since Jesus on several occasions admonished others to fulfill the Law, He must not have meant here that one should literally hate his family. The stress here is on the priority of love (cf. Mt. 10:37). One's loyalty to Jesus must come before his loyalty to his family or even to life itself. Indeed, those who did follow Jesus against their families' desires were probably thought of as hating their families." - John Martin


The issue about Esau is a sovereign choice for service that is not related to individual salvation. Personal names represented nations, at times, in the OT. Individual salvation is seen as chosing today whom you will serve. It is a call to receive or reject truth. We are culpable for our choice, which would not be true if God arbitrarily made the choice fo us before we even existed.

 

[drbrumley]

Just on our discussion earlier ChristisKing, you have been refuted a hundred fold. Jerry is cleaning your clock but you still want to live in a pigsty which is your absurd theology. I'm still waiting on an answer from you regarding predetermineing an unsaved child molester vs. a saved child molester.

Lee,

You know, your about as absurd as ChristisKing is.

 

[ChristisKing]

Just on our discussion earlier ChristisKing, you have been refuted a hundred fold. Jerry is cleaning your clock but you still want to live in a pigsty which is your absurd theology. I'm still waiting on an answer from you regarding predetermineing an unsaved child molester vs. a saved child molester.

Lee,

You know, your about as absurd as ChristisKing is.

Thx for all the "loud outrage and disapproval," it assures me I am definitely on the right track when open theists are solidly against me in unison. This reminds me of another "vote of nonconfidence" regarding this horribly outrageous, unfair, absurd and silly pigsty doctrine:

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

JOH 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[godrulz]

Thx for all the "loud outrage and disapproval," it assures me I am definitely on the right track when open theists are solidly against me in unison. This reminds me of another "vote of nonconfidence" regarding this horribly outrageous, unfair, absurd and silly pigsty doctrine:

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

JOH 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Jn. 6 is another favorite proof text for Calvinists. There is an alternate, cogent, non-Calvinistic understanding of this passage. There are conditions in this passage for the promises, as there are in the other passages involving proof texts about eternal security or supposed unconditional election/irresistible grace. They include eating his flesh, drinking his blood, believing (continuous, present tense vs punctiliar action= Jn. 6:29), look to the Son, listens, comes, eat the Bread of Life, etc.

IF....THEN (not unilateral, arbitrary, coerced)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So that no one will miss it,I asked Christis King the following question in regard to this verse:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple"(Lk.14:26).

"Do you think that before a person can become a disciple of Jesus Christ they must hate themselves and hate their mother and father and wife and children?"

To which ChristisKing answered:

YES

Since ChristisKing is teaching a God of hate it would make perfect sense to him to be hateful himself since we are told that "the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body"(2Cor.4:10).

So according to this reasoning we should hate ourselves and our family so the we can become the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ.

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"(Jn.12:32).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Jerry: I asked if he "ever" had a chance to be saved, and I am speaking about when he was alive.

No, he did not.

Jerry: When was he "prepared for destruction"?

Not from the foundations of the world but instead after the patience of the Lord was exhausted.

How is it that God “raised him up for this very purpose,” then?

DRBrumley: I'm still waiting on an answer from you regarding predetermining an unsaved child molester vs. a saved child molester.

I hold that God knows the future, and controls it, so neither can cross God’s will and purpose for good for those who love him, who are called by him, and both are bound by sinning, sin brings imprisonment.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[servent101]

What do you think?

Well I thought no one would ever ask...

But what I really think is that the only thing one has left to say is either they agree or disagree -and this is bull, after all you get these long winded arguments with all kinds of big words, and what do you got? - something that really does not make any difference, while the rest of the world goes to hell in a handbag - what are you doing - where are your grass roots? - where is your awareness of the plight of your fellow man? - down the sewer with all your high minded and large numbered syllable words making you feel warm in side - it ain't the love of God in yer actions making you warm now is it? - Or is it? - Possibly - but the point is that I think it is better to keep a more down to earth view of life and what is around us, and the speculation described in the first post, is sheer nonsense to contemplate for the most part - read it, but don't study it, in reality does it really make a difference in our actions or our life – do we get to try less if God already knows everything? – is that why people believe this doctrine?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

 

[ChristisKing]

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"(Jn.12:32).

This is all types of men again, both Jews and Gentiles, Kings and slaves. He didn't mean every single person on earth....haven't you learned that yet? Surely you know that millions never even heard about Christ after He was crucified. Do you want me to post again how the phrase "all men" is used in Scripture? I will be more than happy too!!!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lee,

You say that Pharaoh did not have a chance to be saved while he was living.

But earlier you said that the death of Christ was for all men.If he never had a chance to be saved then the death of CHrist was never for him.

How is it that God “raised him up for this very purpose,” then?

The actual words are "for this cause have I made thee stand,to show in thee My power".

In the Greek version the verse is rendered:

"For this purpose hast thou been preserved until now"(Ex.9:16).

After Pharaoh treated the word of the Lord with contempt,saying "Who is the Lord that I should obey His voice"(Ex.5:2) and after he called upon his demon-possessed magicians to parody HIs miracles,it would have been in the spirit of that dispensation if God had struck him down in his sins.But he was preserved--he was made to stand--as a foil for the display of the power of God and that the name of God might be declared throughout all the world.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[drbrumley]

Thx for all the "loud outrage and disapproval," it assures me I am definitely on the right track when open theists are solidly against me in unison. This reminds me of another "vote of nonconfidence" regarding this horribly outrageous, unfair, absurd and silly pigsty doctrine:

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

JOH 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Your definitely on the right track all right. Right to the looney farm. Now he wants to play the role of martyr. "I must be right cause everyone is against me."

Now scoot and worship Augustine and Plato. Its obvious who your Gods are.

 

[drbrumley]

This is all types of men again, both Jews and Gentiles, Kings and slaves. He didn't mean every single person on earth....haven't you learned that yet? Surely you know that millions never even heard about Christ after He was crucified. Do you want me to post again how the phrase "all men" is used in Scripture? I will be more than happy too!!!

Am I missing the words types in this verse?

 

[godrulz]

Hi everyone,


No, he did not.


How is it that God “raised him up for this very purpose,” then?


I hold that God knows the future, and controls it, so neither can cross God’s will and purpose for good for those who love him, who are called by him, and both are bound by sinning, sin brings imprisonment.

Blessings,
Lee

God's control is providential, not meticulous. He is responsive and omnicompetent, not a control freak Dictator. Free will means the future cannot be know exhaustively. God's will can be resisted.

 

[ChristisKing]

Am I missing the words types in this verse?

You missed how the Scriptures define "all men," and where I posted it previously for "all men" to see:

The words "all men" is used in Scripture to mean:

1) Every single man and woman
2) Every single man only
3) All nations and races
4) Every man and woman from Israel
5) Every man only from Israel
5) A great number of people (but not every single person on Earth)
6) Men from every station in life (rich and poor; ordinary and rulers; or "types of men.")

You need to see the context of how "all men" is used in order to understand what "all men" means in any particular verse.

Lets take a look at a few examples, ok?

MAR 1:37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

This means a great number of Israelites, it does not means every single person on earth.

LUK 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

This means a great number of lost people, it does not mean every single person on earth.

JOH 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

This does mean every single man and woman on earth.

LUK 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

This means all lost men and women, not every single person on earth.

ACT 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

This means men and women from every nation and race, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

This means all the believers in this church only, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

This means all the men and women who saw the miracle or knew the man who was healed in Jerusalem, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ACT 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

This means all the men and women in the town that only happened to be present, it does not mean every single person on earth.

1CO 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

This means all "types of men and women" and certain men and women who were "Jews and Gentiles," it does not mean every single person on earth (many were not pleased with Paul....lol).

1TI 2:1-2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

This means "all types of men," men from every station of life, it does not mean every single person on earth.