ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Jerry Shugart]

1TI 2:1-2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

This means "all types of men," men from every station of life, it does not mean every single person on earth.

ChristisKing,

Why cannot 1Tim.2:1 be in reference to "all men" everywhere?

After all,later in the same epistle Paul says:

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth...Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time"(1Tim.2:4,6).

The ransom is for "all men" everywhere because he would have all men everwhere to be saved,as the following verses demonstrate:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"(1Jn.2>2).

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb.2:9).

If you would just believe what these Scriptures are saying I think that you would cease from teaching that before a person can be a disciple of Jesus Christ that they must hate their mother and father as well as their wife and children.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"(Jn.12:32)

ChristIsKing: This is all types of men again, both Jews and Gentiles, Kings and slaves.

Equal time for both sides! I shall work on the other side of the fence now.

People usually point to the context to support this, context back in John 12:20-21, only this skips verse 25, which surely must not mean "men of all types who love their lives will lose it," so I don't think the context carries that far.

1TI 2:1-2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

ChristIsKing: This means "all types of men," men from every station of life, it does not mean every single person on earth.

I agree with Jerry's reply here, and surely Paul didn't mean that we are to pray for all sorts of kings without distinction, yet not for all kings without exception.

Jerry: But earlier you said that the death of Christ was for all men.If he never had a chance to be saved then the death of Christ was never for him.

Unless people can repent even after death, after judgment, which is another topic.

Jerry: The actual words are "for this cause have I made thee stand,to show in thee My power".

In the Greek version the verse is rendered:

"For this purpose hast thou been preserved until now"(Ex.9:16).

But the Septuagint takes liberties, it is not always an accurate rendering of the Hebrew. Shall we not take the inspired Greek NT version over the Septuagint? It's plainly "raised you up" in Romans, and the NT writers were well familiar with the Septuagint, and quote it as appropriate, so it was, it seems, inappropriate here.

So he was raised up for this purpose, a vessel of wrath, "prepared for destruction."

Godrulz: God's will can be resisted.

Psalm 33:10-11 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

It seems when there is a contest, God wins!

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lee,

Earlier I said:

"But earlier you said that the death of Christ was for all men.If he never had a chance to be saved then the death of Christ was never for him."

To which you replied:

Unless people can repent even after death, after judgment, which is another topic.

It seems as if your theology in regard to the subject we are discussing is entirely dependent on the idea that a man can repent after death.

godrulz said:

God's will can be resisted.

He is absolutely correct,as the following words of the Lord Jesus demonstrates:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"(Mt.23:37).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[godrulz]

2 Peter 3:9 God does not want men to perish, yet millions do perish. They reject the influence of the Spirit in their lives. Hell was not created for man. It was created for the devil and demons, but man joined the rebellion and will share their destiny.

Lk. 7:30 The Pharisees rejected God's purposes/will for themselves.

 

[Battuta]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

It seems as if your theology in regard to the subject we are discussing is entirely dependent on the idea that a man can repent after death.

This is an exageration of course. Everyone's theology is partly dependent on the Word of God and partly dependent on how they piece it together. If we don't keep that in mind, we can easily get emotionally involved and forget to season our communication with grace.

What a liberating thought! All those preachers and Sunday school teachers were proclaiming it straight: death and judgment. They wanted to be convincing, and they wanted to be faithful. Rational beings would listen once or twice and realize there must be a problem if that is how the good news ends up. I don't think you could possibly prove it one way or the other from Scriptures. But I prefer the theory in which those who go to hell have rejected the Lord Jesus first.

 

[Battuta]

ChristisKing,

I would agree with you that "all men" means different things at different times in God's word. The word "hate" has various meanings, too. I suggest the word "destruction" could imply physical destruction or the second death.

Romans 9:22, in my opinion, is talking about physical destruction. The context in Exodus, which I previously explored, is talking repeatedly of physical destruction.

God "hated" the individual Esau in that he chose to show His power by overthrowing the normal hierarchy in which younger sons serve older sons. He preferred Jacob by having the ancestral line of Christ pass through him instead of his older brother.

Esau and his descendents often harbored resentment against what they perceived to be unfair treatment. By Malachi's time they were under major judgment, just like most of their neighbors.

 

[ChristisKing]

ChristisKing,

Why cannot 1Tim.2:1 be in reference to "all men" everywhere?

After all,later in the same epistle Paul says:

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth...Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time"(1Tim.2:4,6).

The ransom is for "all men" everywhere because he would have all men everwhere to be saved,as the following verses demonstrate:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"(1Jn.2>2).

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb.2:9).

If you would just believe what these Scriptures are saying I think that you would cease from teaching that before a person can be a disciple of Jesus Christ that they must hate their mother and father as well as their wife and children.

Jerry,

The reason why 1Tim.2:1 probably does not reference to every single person on earth is because of how "all men" is used in context in 1Tim 2. Just like the numerous verses I provided to you earlier with the phrase "all men" in them does not mean every single person everywhere when read in context.

I have already shown you that Paul is limiting his definition of "all men" to include classes of people, "For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty." (1TI 2:2) The church had not yet witnessed the saving of "kings, and for all that were in authority" yet and apparently were not even praying for them. Paul was commanding that prayer be made for these bloodthirsty pagan leaders because some of them were going to be saved which would "be testified in due time!" (1TI 2:6) And now in hindsight we can see Paul was right! It was testified in due time, when Constatine became Christian and the entire Roman Empire became a Christian nation.

I don't understand your criticism of my obedience to Jesus Christ. Christ commanded:

LUK 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I confess that I do hate my father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers as Christ commanded, and you crticize me? You mean you don't?

I confessed to you that I hate them in the context of how Christ meant hate here, not in the context of how God hated Easu. God hated Esau in a different context. Scripture records that God hated Esau with a hatred that would cause Him to "lay his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." God hated Esau with a hatred that when Esau said, "We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places;" that the LORD of hosts said, "They shall build, but I will throw down." God said that He hated Esau with such a hatred that Esau and his people would be known on earth as "The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever."

Christ was teaching that we should hate anyone that stands in the way of our coming to Him, not with the same hatred that God hated Esau, that is we should not "lay their mountains and heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness, destroy all that they built or be indignate against them forever." The hatred Christ spoke of us to have was to uterally despise the love of all these relations for us as they use that love to convince us not to come to Christ! For instance the Jews excommunicate a family member from their family if they embrace Christ, that Christian family member should embrace that excommunication!!

You are making the same error with the word "hate" that you are making with "all men." You think that these words all have the same meaning everywhere they are used in Scripture, and I have proven to you that they do not. That is a very naive and simplistic way to interpret Scripture and I'm afraid it has led you into the heresy of Open Theism.

 

[Battuta]

ChristisKing,
The Lord will reward discipleship. No question about that.

There is not just one context of God hating Esau. There is a context of how God chose to work with Esau before he was born, and a different context of how God worked with the nation Edom a few hundred years before Christ.

Those who insist Romans 9 is talking about Esau only as representing a nation have provoked this response. Open theism in itself does not need to portray Pharaoh and Esau only as representing nations when examining Romans.

-Disciples are to prefer to follow God over the pressures of their families.

-The man Jacob was chosen for special priviledges over his brother Esau because God wanted to fiddle with the cultural and natural order of things to demonstrate His power.

-The nation Edom got favorable treatment from God in Numbers 20 and Deuteronomy 2. Compare that with Sihon and the Amorites. The Lord hardened Sihon's heart and his people were completely destroyed (physically, I believe). There were no survivors. (Deut 2:30-34).

-God's choice to destroy Edom came much later.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is an exageration of course.

No it is not.

Everyone's theology is partly dependent on the Word of God and partly dependent on how they piece it together. If we don't keep that in mind, we can easily get emotionally involved and forget to season our communication with grace.

If you cared about communicating with grace then you should have understood the issues we discussing before you start criticizing others.Lee had said that the death of the Lord Jesus was for all men.But then he said that Pharaoh had no chance at salvation.I then pointed out that he was contradicting himself.And the only solution that he could find was the idea that a person could possibly repent after death.

So what I said was not an exaggeration at all but instead a logical conclusion based on what he had said.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry,
The reason why 1Tim.2:1 probably does not reference to every single person on earth is because of how "all men" is used in context in 1Tim 2. Just like the numerous verses I provided to you earlier with the phrase "all men" in them does not mean every single person everywhere when read in context.

ChristisKing,

There is nothing in the "context" that demands that the phrase "all men" at 1Tim.2:1 must refer to all types of men.Yes,the words in regard to "kings" are a "subset" of the "set" "all types of men",but it is also a "subset" of the "set" of "all men everywhere".

And if we look at the earlier verses we can see the following:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief"(1Tim.1:15).

There is no reason to believe that the reference is only in regard to "all types of sinners".This must refer to "all men everywhere" because "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"(Ro.2:23).

After all,the Lord died for "every man":

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb.2:9).

Then later in the first epistle to Timothy we read:

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth...Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time"(1Tim.2:4,6).

And the Scriptures reveal that He did in fact give Himself a ransom for all men:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"(1Jn.2:2).

So to attempt to say that 1Tim.2:4,6 is in regard to "all types" of men because of your interpretation of verses one and two of the same chapter falls apart because of the weight of the Scriptual evidence to the contrary.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

ChristisKing,

There is nothing in the "context" that demand that the phrase "all men" at 1Tim.2:1 must refer to all types of men.Yes,the words in regard to "kings" are a "subset" of the "set" "all types of men",but it is also a "subset" of the "set" of "all men everywhere".

Paul specifically mentions only "...kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.." He didn't mention fisherman or tax collectors or tent makers. Why did he just mention only one tiny minority of earth's entire population? Why didn't he mention other subset's? You must begin to ask yourself, "Is Paul trying to make a specific point with this specific subset?"

I think so.

I think you ignored this specific subset that Paul specifically emphasized because you only saw what you really wanted to see and that is the phrase "all men," and you jumped all over it. Now maybe you will be more careful after seeing how the Holy Spirit uses the phrase "all men" throughout the rest of Scripture.

And if we look at the earlier verses we can see the following:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief"(1Tim.1:15).

Jerry, you are pointing out one of the most strongest Calvinistic verses in the entire Bible. In the very next verse Paul says:

1TI 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul's salvation was indeed a pattern "to them which should hereafter believe." Paul was saved against his will. He was saved whilst try to crush Jesus Christ and all His people on earth. He was saved while he hated Jesus Christ and all Christ stood for!! Paul's salvation was a complete and utter surprise to him, he wasn't looking for Christ, Christ was looking for him!

Yes, Christ came into the world to save sinners, and He saves every single one that He came to save and He saves them all "in the same pattern" that He saved Paul, against their wills while enemies of the cross and with absolutely no effort on their part!! Even the faith they have is given to them by God!

After all,the Lord died for "every man":

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb.2:9).

Another verse when "taken in context" that specifically and strongly teaches that Christ came and died only for "the elect."

HEB 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

In the very next verses the Holy Spirit teaches who these "every man" are:

They are "many sons":

HEB 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

They are "the sanctified, His brothers":

HEB 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

They are "the Church":

HEB 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

They are "the children which God gave to Christ":

HEB 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

They are "the children which God gave to Christ who were flesh and blood":

HEB 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I see the phrase "every man" that Christ came and died for to be specifically defined as "many sons," "the sanctified," His Brothers," "the Church," "the children God gave Christ" and no where, absolutely no where, does it say every single person who ever lived on earth.

Then later in the first epistle to Timothy we read:

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth...Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time"(1Tim.2:4,6).

And earlier in Timothy we read:

1TI 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Which was testified in due time with the Christianization of the entire Roman Empire and its kings and all those in authority only 300 years later.

And the Scriptures reveal that He did in fact give Himself a ransom for all men:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world"(1Jn.2:2).

The Scriptures reveal that John was an apostle to the Jews, "the circumcision:"

GAL 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

John wrote his letters to the Jews! All John is saying in this verse is that salvation is not for the Jews only but also for the Gentiles. The word "ours" in the verse you quoted means John and the Jews to whom he is writing. Another help you will find when interpreting Scripture is to understand exactly to whom the various letters are being written to so you don't misapply the use of "us" and "ours."

So to attempt to say that 1Tim.2:4,6 is in regard to "every single man ever to have lived on earth" because of your misinterpretation of only one or two phrases simply taken out of context falls apart because of the weight of the Scriptual evidence to the contrary.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul specifically mentions only "...kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.." He didn't mention fisherman or tax collectors or tent makers. Why did he just mention only one tiny minority of earth's entire population? Why didn't he mention other subset's? You must begin to ask yourself, "Is Paul trying to make a specific point with this specific subset?"

I think so.

ChristisKing,

If Paul wanted to make a specific point that he was referring to "all types of men" then why didn't he say so?In other places where the words "all men" are in reference to a specific subset it is evident because it is made clear in the context.But that is not the case here.You must "think" that Paul is referring to "all types" of men or else you will have no explanation for the words that follow,"Who would have all men to be saved"(1Tim.2:4).

Since those words clearly refute your theology you must grasp at straws and attempt to prove that when Paul speaks of praying for "all men" that he really means praying for "all types" of men.But since you have no real evidence to prove this you just make up something that makes no sense at all.

Jerry, you are pointing out one of the most strongest Calvinistic verses in the entire Bible. In the very next verse Paul says:

1TI 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

If that verse is one of the strongest verses to support Calvinism then it is obvious that there is no Scripture that supports Calvinism.

Paul's salvation was indeed a pattern "to them which should hereafter believe."

Yes,Paul describes himself as the "chief" of sinners,and the "pattern" is that the Lord will save the worst of men.

Paul was saved against his will.

If this is the "pattern" of which you speak then we would expect to see all those who are saved being saved against their will.But the Scriptures are full of examples of sinners who gladly received the gospel.There was nothing at all about these people that even hint that they were saved against their will.

Again,you must grasp at straws in order to defend the indefensible.The Lord Jesus came into the world to save sinners,and not just some "types" of sinners.

HEB 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

In the very next verses the Holy Spirit teaches who these "every man" are:

They are "many sons":

He came to taste death of "every man" but only those who believe become "sons":

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"(Jn.1:12).

But you will say that the Lord only gives faith to the elect.So we can see that it is the Lord's fault when unbelievers perish:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved"(2Thess.2:10).

So according to Calvinsts unbelievers cannot come to the truth because they are not given faith.However,this teaching is directly contradiced by the following words:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God...For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved"(Jn.3:18,20).

These words say that men do not come to the truth "lest his sins should be reproved" but Calvinism teaches that a man does not come to the truth because the Lord has not given them the abilty to believe.

more later...

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

So according to Calvinsts unbelievers cannot come to the truth because they are not given faith.

No....according to Scripture:

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

ROM 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

MAR 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
MAR 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

JOH 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
JOH 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

ChristisKing,

You did not address the verse I provided.Do you not believe that it is true?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"(Acts13:48).

Those who wrote the New Testament understood that God exists outside of time.And that is why they talk about His actions as being before the foundation of the world.

For instance,from man's perspective the Lord Jesus was not crucified until the first century.But from God's perspective it could be said that He was crucified from the foundations of the world:

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"(Rev.13:8).

The following verse speaks from both God's perspective and man's perspective:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"(2Thess.2:13).

From God's perspective it can be said that the Lord chose us to salvation from the beginning.From man's perspective the sinner is not saved until he believes the truth.And when Luke spoke of the Gentiles who believed being "ordained" he was merely speaking from the perspective of God,Who lives outside of time.

But the Calvinists take the verses that are in regard to the perspective of God and make them apply to man's perspective.And by making this mistake they fall further into confusion by assuming that the Lord died only for those who were chosen from the beginning of time.However,the writers of the Scriptures were not confused,and they made it as plain as possible that the Lord Jesus tasted death for every man:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"(Heb.2:9).

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

Jerry,

What's the point?

I've addressd dozens of your verses and all you can say is, "No it is not," or "Nuh uh." You apply one meaning a word is used in Scripture to be the all inclusive meaning it must always and forever be used. You won't address any of my verses in any other way and you keep applying these same naive and simplistic interpretation skills to every verse you come accross. You won't even recognize obvious faults in you interpretation skills, quite frankliy....you're wasting my time now.

Why don't you stop and think a little bit and reflect upon what you've learned here, why don't you ask the Lord who is right and who is wrong and may He be pleased to show the errors to either one of us. I will do the same, ok?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Calvinists teach that only the elect are given the ability to believe the gospel.So according to them the elect will be saved no matter what.The rest of mankind has no chance at all to be saved because they are not given the ability to believe the gospel.

So I wonder who Paul is referring to in the following verse:

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"(2Cor.4:4).

This verse is clearly saying that someone has the ability to believe the gospel but they cannot because Satan has blinded them to the truth.It couldn't be the elect because all of them will believe the gospel.And it couldn't be in regard to the rest of mankind because it is not necessary for anyone to blind them to the truth because they are not given the ability to believe.

So perhaps the Calvinits will tell us who Paul is referring to here being blinded.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

Jesus Christ and the Apostles taught that because of Adam sin entered into the world and as sinners all people became enslaved to the devil to always do his will. Christ came and died for all the children God gave to Him before the foundation of the world in order to break satan's rule and control over them/us. So now, "God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ,....so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves." (2CO 4:6-7)

Therefore we are "not quarrelsome, but kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will," obviously having no "free will" to do so by themselves. (2Tim 2:24-26)

All this, of course, is diametrically opposed to that old previously condemned heresy Socinianism, which has only been recently relabled with the new title "Open Theism."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus Christ and the Apostles taught that because of Adam sin entered into the world and as sinners all people became enslaved to the devil to always do his will.

The verse is about those who are already sinners being blinded by Satan so that they cannot "see" the gospel.

According to the Calvinists the elect are the only people able to "see" the gospel because they are the only people given faith.

The rest of mankind are blind.They cannot see the gospel because they have not been given the ability by God to "see" it.

But Paul talks about some being "blinded" by Satan so that they cannot "see" the gospel:

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"(2Cor.4:4).

The people referred to here cannot be the elect because all of them see the gospel.And it cannot refer to the rest of mankind because the rest of mankind is already blind to the gospel because they have not been given the ability to see it.

Perhaps a Calvinst will tell us who these people are.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

The verse is about those who are already sinners being blinded by Satan so that they cannot "see" the gospel.

According to the Calvinists the elect are the only people able to "see" the gospel because they are the only people given faith.

The rest of mankind are blind.They cannot see the gospel because they have not been given the ability by God to "see" it.

But Paul talks about some being "blinded" by Satan so that they cannot "see" the gospel:

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"(2Cor.4:4).

The people referred to here cannot be the elect because all of them see the gospel.And it cannot refer to the rest of mankind because the rest of mankind is already blind to the gospel because they have not been given the ability to see it.

Perhaps a Calvinst will tell us who these people are.

A Calvinist already told you several times, the Apostle Paul! Paul said he was chief among these blind sinners and that all are blinded by satan until God opens their eyes, in the same pattern God opened Paul's eyes.

Just go down 2 verses where that great Calvinist Paul states that God gave us the Light and removed our blindness so that the power would be from God and not from our selves.

2CO 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

2CO 4:7 ¶ But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;

Or see 2 Timothy where that great Calvinist Paul again states that it must be God who grants repentance to those taken captive by satan to always do his will, because they are enslaved by the devil and have no free will to do it on their own!

2TI 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

2TI 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Once again, all these Calvinistic teachings of Paul are diametrically opposed to the heresy of Open Theism.