ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[ChristisKing]

The soul that sins is the one who dies (Ezekiel). You cannot blame it on Adam.

ROM 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Once again, who should I believe, Paul or godrulz?

 

[godrulz]

ROM 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Once again, who should I believe, Paul or godrulz?

Believe Paul (nice false dichotomy=logical fallacy). He is talking about physical death and physical depravity. Death is one consequence of the fall that affects the entire race. Moral depravity is not inheritable, since sin is a choice, not a substance that can be passed on genetically. We universally sin, because all chose to live for the flesh over God. We all fall short of the glory of God no matter how 'good' we are. Adam gave us a propensity/proclivity to sin, but was not the cause/excuse for each individual.

The image of God is defaced, not erased. We are still in the personal image of God which includes will, intellect, and emotions. Unbelievers and believers both have these personal attributes. The will is the seat of choice, leading to vice/blameworthy and virtue/praiseworthy. There is nothing back of the will that causes us to sin. If there was, we would not be responsible, since we could not help it.

Chose today whom you will serve (Joshua). God sets a choice before us knowing we can chose to receive or reject truth.

One hour before conversion, and unbeliever can murder or commit adultery. One day after conversion, a believer could do these things also. Lucifer and Adam sinned without anything back of the will to cause them to sin. Likewise, we become sinners because we sin; we do not sin because we are sinners (confuses morals and metaphysics).

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Jerry: Do you think that Pharaoh ever had a chance to be saved?

Certainly not while God was hardening him, but maybe after death, even?

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.

As here, speaking of another Pharaoh:

Ezekiel 30:19 So I will inflict punishment on Egypt, and they will know that I am the Lord.

Jerry: Do you think that the Lord is a mad potter who would make a vessel for the express purpose of destroying it?

Again, isn't that what Paul says specifically?

Romans 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-- prepared for destruction?

I believe that Pharoah had a chance for salvation and it was not until after he rejected God's words that he was fitted for destruction.

But then God would not have accomplished his purpose to have his name proclaimed in all the earth.

So according to you the reason that these Jews would not come to Christ was because it was not in God's will.

Yes, I agree, that is why they would not come:

Luke 17:25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Jesus knew that this would happen (as in Dan. 9:26).

Jerry: So the Israelite's cannot be guilty for rejecting the Lord Jesus because it was willed by God that they could not come to Him.

Godrulz: There is nothing back of the will that causes us to sin. If there was, we would not be responsible, since we could not help it.

Then why were people guilty for unintentional sins, under the law?

Leviticus 4:22 When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the Lord his God, he is guilty.

Godrulz: we do not sin because we are sinners (confuses morals and metaphysics).

Then slaves to sin don't do what sin wants? I think they do, and that everyone is born in chains to sin, this must be part of the fall:

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lee,

You did not answer my question.Here it is again:

"Do you think that Pharaoh ever had a chance to be saved? "

You answered:

Certainly not while God was hardening him, but maybe after death, even?

I asked if he "ever" had a chance to be saved,and I am speaking about when he was alive.

In His grace,--Jerry
"Dispensationalism Made Easy"
http://midacts.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[ChristisKing]

Believe Paul ...

Ok

 

[ChristisKing]

Lee,

You did not answer my question.Here it is again:

"Do you think that Pharaoh ever had a chance to be saved?

To Moses and Aaron, of course Pharaoh had a chance to be saved. In hindsight knowing the revealed eternal election of God for Pharaoh as revealed by the Holy Spirit in Scripture, not a chance.

Did Esau ever have a chance to realize all the benefits of being the firstborn?

 

[godrulz]

Ok

Believe the correct interpretation of what Paul meant, not what your preconceived ideas think he meant.

 

[godrulz]

To Moses and Aaron, of course Pharaoh had a chance to be saved. In hindsight knowing the revealed eternal election of God for Pharaoh as revealed by the Holy Spirit in Scripture, not a chance.

Did Esau ever have a chance to realize all the benefits of being the firstborn?

God's involvement with Pharaoh was based on the fact that Pharaoh hardened His own heart. The global issues dealt with are distinct from Pharaoh's standing before God. If Pharaoh would have repented and obeyed, he could have been saved. He refused to do so and God continued to allow a judicial further hardening of his heart and used this to demonstrate His power and glory and to set His people free.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did Esau ever have a chance to realize all the benefits of being the firstborn?

To people like you Esau was not going to realize the benefits of a firstborn because God HATED HIM before he was ever born.Of course the Lord is love and hate.

For God so loved the world of the elect that He gave His only begotten Son and He hated all the rest of mankind before they were even born.

No wonder so many unbelievers react in horror when presented with your twisted gospel.

 

[ChristisKing]

God's involvement with Pharaoh was based on the fact that Pharaoh hardened His own heart.

And a one-a more-a time-a.....who should I believe Paul or godrulz? :chuckle:

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (ROM 9:17-18, 22)

 

[ChristisKing]

To people like you Esau was not going to realize the benefits of a firstborn because God HATED HIM before he was ever born.Of course the Lord is love and hate.

No wonder so many unbelievers react in horror when presented with your twisted gospel.

Yeah to people like me and Paul:

ROM 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

ROM 9:13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Oh what horror what a twisted gospel....THERE IS INJUSTICE WITH GOD!!!!

ROM 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (ROM 9:17-18, 22)

When was he "prepared for destruction"?

Not from the foundations of the world but instead after the patience of the Lord was exhausted.

 

[godrulz]

And a one-a more-a time-a.....who should I believe Paul or godrulz? :chuckle:

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (ROM 9:17-18, 22)

Someone buy the man a good, non-Calvinistic exegetical commentary.

"God's Strategy in Human History" Forster (Calvinistic genius F.F. Bruce said this book's arguments against him had merit)

"Beyond Calvinism and Arminiansim: An inductive mediate theology of salvation" C. Gordon Olson

These books exegetically walk through Rom. 9-11 and will give you a cogent, alternate understanding to your preconceived ideas.

Using Rom. 9-11 as a proof for God's sovereignty manifest in the unconditional election of individuals is common in Calvinism. When the context is examined in light of OT passages Paul quotes, their case falls apart. The Jew/Gentile issue in the Roman church is important background. The transition from Israel being God's chosen people to the Church, composed of both Jew and Gentile is significant. God's sovereign justice in His dealings with Israel is affirmed. Paul also talks about God's righteous dealings with all men through righteousness by faith. God used Israel's fall for world salvation.

The bottom line is that the passage is primarily about God's dealing with Israel corporately. Unconditional election of individuals is a deductive concept on the shaky ground of proof texts out of context. Careful exegesis is required. Sorry that this would require time and energy I do not have. Many non-Calvinistic books have already done this well.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yeah to people like me and Paul:

ROM 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

ROM 9:13 Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

...but Esua I loved less.

Oh what horror what a twisted gospel....THERE IS INJUSTICE WITH GOD!!!!

Of course you teach that there is,and then you quote the following verse which says that there is no injustice with God:

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid"(Ro.9:14).

 

[ChristisKing]

...but Esua I loved less.

Where is that in Scripture?

 

[ChristisKing]

When was he "prepared for destruction"?

Not from the foundations of the world but instead after the patience of the Lord was exhausted.

Where is that in Scripture?

I see this:

ROM 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
ROM 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

This says He prepared them before they did anything!

Now who should I believe Paul or Jerry? :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where is that in Scripture?

ROM 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Are we supposed to believe that he was prepared for destruction from the foundations of the earth but desoite that the Lord was enduring him with much patience?

Of course you say that God is unrighteous,and that is because you put what some men say about the Scriptures above what the Scriptures actually say.

Is there unrighteousness with Gof,ChristisKing?

 

[ChristisKing]

ROM 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Are we supposed to believe that he was prepared for destruction from the foundations of the earth but desoite that the Lord was enduring him with much patience?

Is there unrighteousness with Gof,ChristisKing?

Yes you're supposed to believe that verse Jerry .... and;

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (ROM 9:14-15)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where is that in Scripture?

Here is the meaning of the Geek word translated "hate" at Romans 9:13:

"Ro. ix. 13,the signification to love less,to postpone in love or esteem,to slight"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

The same word is translated "hate" in the following verse:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple"(Lk.14:26).

According to the definition that you want to always place on the Greek word then we must part company with our common sense and imagine that the Lord Jesus is saying that we cannot be His disciple unless we hate ourselves and our mother and father and wife and children.

Come to think about it,that fits perfectly with your idea that God is unrighteous.

Of course to us who believe that there is no unrighteousness in God we can understand that He is saying that we cannot be His disciple unless we love Him more than ourselves and our family.

 

[ChristisKing]

Here is the meaning of the Geek word translated "hate" at Romans 9:13:

"Ro. ix. 13,the signification to love less,to postpone in love or esteem,to slight"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

Here is the meaning of the biblical word hate:

"And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever." (God's Holy Bible; MAL 1:3-4)