ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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ChristisKing

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"Open theists proclaim that God cannot know future contingent events. That is the fancy way of referring to events in the future, which result from human beings making free choices. Now that claim sounds innocent enough, but let me show you some of the consequences of that. Think back to the moment when Jesus Christ was dying on the cross. Incidentally, let me tell you what John Sanders, one open theist, says about the cross. He says that God the Father had no knowledge that His Son would end up being crucified. And at that particular moment, when God the Father looks down from heaven and sees His Son hanging on the cross, John Sanders put it in language somewhat like this, "Oops, I guess we have to switch to plan B." Because, you see, to these open theists, God is completely surprised by any large number of events that happened in the world. But this poor, impotent deity, who is described by the open theists, this finite God of open theism, had no way of knowing at the time that Jesus was dying if even one human being would accept His Son as Savior. This poor, impotent deity faced the possibility that the suffering of His Son on the cross would bring about the salvation of no one. Another open theist, who happens to be a friend of mine, Bill Hasker, teaches at a college in Indiana, says that the very fact that there is a church of God is a matter of God's dumb blind luck because God had no way of controlling whatever outcome might follow the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross. Now I believe all of these consequences are absurd."--Ron Nash

Trustees of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship school of the 16 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, passed a resolution saying, "Open theism's denial of God's exhaustive definitive foreknowledge constitutes an egregious biblical and theological departure from orthodoxy and poses a serious threat to evangelical integrity."

The Evangelical Theological Society approved a resolution rejecting open theism and supporting the position that "God has complete, accurate and infallible knowledge of all events past, present and future, including all future decisions and actions of free moral agents."

I agree with Ron Nash, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the Evangelical Theological Society. What do you think?
 

Berean Todd

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ChristisKing said:
I agree with Ron Nash, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the Evangelical Theological Society. What do you think?

I agree wholeheartedly as well, Open Theism is a humanistic blight on Christianity, and it is unBiblical and demeaning of God. However, understand that this site is a serious outpost OF open theism, so be prepared to be attacked, it's coming ...
 

ChristisKing

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Anything is better than God choosing, electing and predestinating us, right?

Anything is better than God choosing, electing and predestinating us, right?

Berean Todd said:
I agree wholeheartedly as well, Open Theism is a humanistic blight on Christianity, and it is unBiblical and demeaning of God. However, understand that this site is a serious outpost OF open theism, so be prepared to be attacked, it's coming ...

I picked up on that just from the responses to my limited posts in here. That is why I posted this, what a horrible theology! I can't imagine how you could ever believe that God "doesn't know" something. What kinda god is this?

But if it helps your arminian theology work better then I guess it's tempting to run with it. I mean anything is better than God choosing, electing and predestinating us, right?
 
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Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
ChristisKing said:
I picked up on that just from the responses to my limited posts in here. That is why I posted this, what a horrible theology! I can't imagine how you could ever believe that God "doesn't know" something. What kinda god is this?

But if it helps your arminian theology work better then I guess it's tempting to run with it. I mean anything is better than God choosing, electing and predestinating us, right?

God knows everything that is knowable.

BTW, Open theism is not arminianism.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
ChristisKing said:
I agree with Ron Nash, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the Evangelical Theological Society. What do you think?
What do I think???

I guess whatever God ordained me to think. :sheep:
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER
ChristisKing said:
He did, Adam! God just can't create God.

So you argee that Adam is a free will being?

Where did you get that God can not create God? I think we all know that. God always existed.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Do any of you know Ron Nash?

We are looking for a person to debate this topic here on TOL in a formal debate.
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
ChristisKing said:
God knows everything.
Does God have control of His knowledge? Or does God's knowledge control Him?

In other words....
If God decided He didn't want to know something could He choose to NOT know it? Or is God a slave to His own knowledge?
 

God_Is_Truth

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this has to be one of the worst descriptions of open theism i've ever seen. the first sentence isn't even correct for crying out loud.

"Open theists proclaim that God cannot know future contingent events."

that is blatantly false as open theists believe God knows the future, but we say he knows it as it really is, contingent. it's not saying he doesn't know the future (as we are slanderously accused of saying), but that he knows it as it is instead of what it is not. in other words, we believe God perfectly foreknows a contingent future, not one that is exhaustively settled.

open theism deals with the nature of the future, not God's foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge is complete, accurate and perfect. what that foreknowledge consists of (the nature of the future) is whats different with open theism with regard to traditional christianity.

it is also just as ludicrous to suggest that God did not purpose the cross for salvation. Paul most clearly states that it was purposed from before the foundation of the world but was hidden in God until revealed to Paul. no open theist in their right mind honestly believes God the Father looked down when his Son was being crucified and said "oops, guess i'll have to go with plan B".

if you want to know what open theists really believe then go buy a book by either Greg Boyd or some other prominent open theist and read what they have to say so next time you won't misrepresent what they believe.
 

Emo

New member
posted by ChristisKing

I can't imagine how you could ever believe that God "doesn't know" something. What kinda god is this?

:confused:

So let me guess, God knew 6000 yrs. ago that you would be a Calvinist & that you would be saved.
Hey, you're one of the elect, congratulations on winning the salvation lottery, your salvation code is #2698752469.


Titus 2:11

  • For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

Does God desire for only a predetermined amount of people to be saved? Doesn't God want all men to repent?

If only the elect are saved by Christ's blood then by your account His blood has a cheap, limited value. How foolish! The work of the Cross has the ability to save anyone, which gives it the amazing, infinite value that it was originally intended for. Please, don't discount & cheapen the price that was paid at Calvary.
 

ChristisKing

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Perhaps God may grant them repentance

Perhaps God may grant them repentance

emohaslove said:
So let me guess, God knew 6000 yrs. ago that you would be a Calvinist & that you would be saved.
Hey, you're one of the elect, congratulations on winning the salvation lottery, your salvation code is #2698752469.

No, He didn't just know, He presdestined it!

He created me, then elected me, then predestined me, then called me, then saved me, and now He's going to resurrect me. All I did was sin.

ROM 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
ROM 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

emohaslove said:
Titus 2:11

  • For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

Yes all "types" of men"

TIT 2:2 Older men
TIT 2:3 Older women
TIT 2:4 ...young women
TIT 2:6 ....young men
TIT 2:9 ....bondslaves ... masters

In summary, " the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men" TIT 2:11

emohaslove said:
Does God desire for only a predetermined amount of people to be saved? Doesn't God want all men to repent?

Yes, but they can't. They are dead in their sins and held as satan's slaves, only God can grant them repentance, and as many as are ordained to eternal life will believe.

2TI 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

2TI 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 
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Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
ChristisKing said:
He created me, then elected me, then predestined me, then called me, then saved me, and now He's going to resurrect me. All I did was sin.
Well.... according to Calvinism you didn't even do that did you? After all... if God predestines EVERYTHING... then EVERYTHING must include your sin.
 
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