(Acts 15:18) All His works are known to God from eternity.
And?
The verse is about God's knowledge of His own works, not every future decision made by human beings.
And don't rip the verse out of its context. The immediate context is the Jerusalem Council, where they were trying to determine what to do about the Gentile believers and whether they needed to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.
James is discussing God's dealings with the Gentiles in accordance with His previously revealed purposes.
Even if the verse includes God's future works, how does knowing all His own works establish that He infallibly knows every future human choice?
Are you suggesting that every human action, including every sin, is one of God's works?
and yet people deny Jesus is God
Red herring.
Nobody here is disputing the deity of Christ.
And did you forget why you brought it up in the first place?
You were attempting to justify your inability to provide biblical support for exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge by comparing it to the absence of Jesus saying the exact words "I am God."
But nobody is demanding a verse containing the precise phrase "God has exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge."
We're demanding that you demonstrate that the doctrine follows from Scripture.
Christ's deity can be established from Scripture without those exact words. You still haven't demonstrated how Scripture establishes exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge of every future human choice.
(Acts 15:18) All His works are known to God from eternity.
Repeating a verse that has already been addressed is not demonstrating how Scripture establishes exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge of every future human choice.
Then stop with the straw man attacks.
here, his answer to my question : #22 Yes, there are some things that God knows will happen because He has the power to make them come to pass!
So you think that that means that God makes people sin?
How?
I asked did God make them sin ?
(Psalms 22:14-18)
God did not make anyone sin.
And we've already addressed Psalm 22. David's poetic description of his suffering foreshadows Christ's crucifixion.
Even if you insist that it is predictive prophecy, foreknowledge of a particular event does not establish exhaustive foreknowledge of every future human choice.
God knows what you freely choose
Just like I know you will freely choose to completely ignore any argument which resoundingly defeats your position.
And I'm definitely not God.
that being said God chose us first , He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world , before we existed.
(Ephesians 1:4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
"Us in Him" is not talking about God selecting specific individuals independently of Christ.
God decided beforehand that WHOEVER is "in Christ" would be holy and without blame before Him in love.
He's describing His purpose for those who are in Christ.
That doesn't require knowing every individual who would eventually become part of that group.
(John 15:16) You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you
Context context context!
Jesus is speaking DIRECTLY to His disciples about their appointment to bear fruit.
This is not a statement establishing exhaustive foreknowledge of every future human choice.
ignoring the evidence doesn't make it go away as you like to say ,didn't address the bolded part did you ?
(Ephesians 1:4)
I did address it. It's still there in your quotation of my post.
You not reading it doesn't mean I didn't address it.
And even if you established that God foreknew a particular person's salvation, you still wouldn't have established exhaustive foreknowledge.
in order to choose us in Him before the foundation of the world ,
God has to have exhaustive infallible foreknowledge how else could God foreknow of your existence without knowing all the details
that had to happen for you to come into existence .
There's your assumption. It's called begging the question. Can't do that.
The only thing required for God to choose "us in Him" before the foundation of the world is for Him to establish His purpose for whoever would eventually be in Christ.
It does not require knowing every specific individual who would eventually exist, much less all of their future actions.
Knowing a particular future outcome is not the same thing as knowing everything about the future.
(1 person odds of existence roughly 1 in 10⁷,⁵⁰⁰ — a 1 followed by 7,500 zeros.)
No idea how you came up with that number, but it's completely irrelevant, since that's not what the verse is saying anyways.
(Romans 8:29) For whom He foreknew, means before you existed
No. You're ignoring the context. "Whom He foreknew" is referring to the group named in the verse preceding verse 29:
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 8:28&version=NKJV
"Those who love God, those who are the called according to His purpose."
Paul then describes God's purpose for that group: that they be conformed to the image of His Son.
And you still haven't established exhaustive foreknowledge of every future human choice.
(Romans 11:2) God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew. The Jews God foreknew and chose by election
Again, context!
Paul is talking about Israel as God's covenant people.
In verse 1, Paul identifies himself as an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Then he brings up Elijah and the seven thousand who had not bowed the knee to Baal.
And in verse 5:
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 11:5&version=NKJV
Paul is distinguishing Israel as God's covenant people from the faithful remnant within Israel.
And notice what Paul is actually arguing.
Has God cast away His people? Certainly not!
These are the people God had already known and chosen as His covenant people, the people with whom He had dealt throughout their history.
God hasn't forgotten Israel or His promises to them simply because many Israelites have rejected Christ.
The "foreknowledge" in this passage concerns God's prior knowledge of and relationship with Israel as His people. Paul isn't defining exhaustive knowledge of every future human choice.
You're taking the word "foreknew" and assuming it means God knew every future action of every Israelite from eternity past.
That's not what Paul is arguing.
Peter (I Peter 1:2) chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you, and peace be multiplied
Peter is writing to the elect sojourners of the Dispersion, identified in verse 1.
Their election is according to God's foreknowledge, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and the sprinkling of Christ's blood.
And where does Peter establish that God knows every future free choice of every human being?
(Hint: he doesn't.)
the disciples believed God has exhaustive infallible foreknowledge
Saying it doesn't make it so!
And how could they believe that when God Himself indicates the future is uncertain by saying perhaps, by chance, lest, etc.?
| "Perhaps everyone will listen and turn [repent, so] that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them" Jer. 26:3; "Then the Lord God said, '...now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden... and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden... to guard the way to the tree of life" Gen. 3:22-24; "Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, 'Lest perhaps the people change their mind and return to Egypt' " Ex. 13:17; if the Egyptians "do not believe you nor heed the message of the first sign, that they may believe the message of the latter sign. And it shall be, if they do not believe even these two signs, or listen to your voice, that you shall take water from the river and pour it on the dry land. The water... will become blood" Ex. 4:8-9 (the Bible doesn't record but Egypt's secular writing does that indeed it did come to this, when Moses poured the water on the ground); "do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, lest He break out against them" Ex. 19:24; "For if God did not spare the natural branches [Israel], He may not spare you either [the Gentiles]. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also [Israel], if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again" Rom. 11:21-23 by which Paul explains that God could graft national Israel back in again as His covenant people, and being God (who could stop Him?) He could bring to a premature end to His covenant with the Body of Christ (at which point He'd either return to His covenant of circumcision or do something new); "If she had not [Heb. perhaps] turned aside from Me, surely I would also have killed you by now, and let her live" Num. 22:33; "It may be [Heb. perhaps] that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin" Jer. 36:3 showing the extent and significance of the possibilities; “They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind... the stalk... shall never produce meal [but] if [Heb. perhaps] it should produce, aliens [foreigners] would swallow it up" Hos. 8:7; "The Lord said, "Indeed the people are one... and this is what they begin to do; now nothing they propose to do will be withheld from them" Gen. 11:6; perhaps regarding Israel, "it may be that they will consider" and repent Ezek. 12:3; "by chance a certain priest came down that road [to Jericho] Luke 10:31; "Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you" John 5:14; "if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land... it shall be that I will do to you as I thought to do to them Num. 33:55-56 (that is, God threatened to cast out Israel, as happened by the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, instead of casting out the pagan nations); "Then they drew near to the village where they were going, and He [ Jesus ] indicated that He would have gone farther. But they constrained Him saying, 'Abide with us...' and He went in to stay with them" Luke 24:28-29; "Now about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea, and would have passed them by" except that His disciples cried out and He replied to them Mark 6:48; "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall" 1 Cor. 10:12; and see Ezek. 7:23-24, the future now being different from what it would have been, but for their bloody crime. |
opentheism.org
How do you account for these passages within your claim that every future human choice is already infallibly known?
(Psalms 139:16) Thine eyes saw my unformed substance, and in thy book they were all written, even the days that were ordained, when as yet there was none of them.
We've been over this one, way 2 go. Did you forget already?
The immediate context concerns David's development in his mother's womb.
And even if the reference to his days is understood as concerning his future lifespan, that still doesn't establish exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge of every future human choice.
(Jeremiah 1:5) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou came forth out of the womb I sanctified thee. I have appointed thee a prophet to the nations
Notice that God says "formed," not "conceived." Those are two different concepts.
God knew Jeremiah (post-conception) and appointed him to be a prophet to the nations.
Setting someone apart for a particular purpose does not require infallibly knowing every decision that person will ever make.
the verse says "All His works are known to God from eternity."
All past , present and future : All God has done , is doing , will do , are known to God from eternity
exhaustive infallible foreknowledge
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Supra.
one type of work that God knows about
(Philippians 1:6) being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,
And?
Notice that God has already
begun this work. Paul is expressing confidence that God will complete what He has begun.
God knowing what He intends to accomplish doesn't require knowing every choice the Philippians will make along the way.
Nor does knowledge of a particular future outcome establish exhaustive foreknowledge of every future human choice.
I know it is God
all ,is not some ,it's All ,
The meaning and scope of "all" are determined by context.
For example, do you really believe that the entirety of "Jerusalem, Judea, and all the region around the Jordan" came out to be baptized in the Jordan by John the Baptist?
Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 3:5-6&version=NKJV
Clearly, "all" doesn't mean every individual without exception. Luke 7:29-30 explicitly identifies people who were not baptized by John, including the Pharisees and lawyers.
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father. ’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. ”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 3:7-12&version=NKJV
And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 7:29-30&version=NKJV
So "all" must be understood according to its context.
But even granting that Acts 15:18 means literally every single one of God's works, you're ignoring the qualification.
All HIS works.
Not all future human choices.
You're treating the word "all" as though it has no limitation whatsoever, despite the verse explicitly identifying what it refers to.
and from eternity
has done, is doing, will do , from eternity
Not what the verse says.
As already explained, the context concerns God's longstanding works and purposes, particularly His dealings with Israel and the Gentiles.
God hasn't forgotten what He's done, what He's promised, or what He intends to accomplish.
You're assuming the passage describes His infallible knowledge of every future action, rather than demonstrating that interpretation from the text.
that takes :
exhaustive infallible foreknowledge
No, it doesn't.
(Acts 15:18) All His works are known to God from eternity.
Supra.
believe what ever you want , but is it true ?
That's precisely what we've established by examining what Scripture actually says.
You, on the other hand, have done nothing but post prooftext after prooftext, none of which say what you need them to say.
did God make them sin or was it foreknowledge ?
False dichotomy. Again.
God can accomplish His purposes without either causing people to sin or requiring exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge of every future human choice.
Knowing that He will accomplish something doesn't require knowing every contingent decision involved in bringing it about.
why the yelling ? ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Emphasis isn't yelling. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
why are open theist so bitter?
Not bitter. Annoyed. With you. Because you refuse to understand. Much like Israel did.
You are very confused.
If not, then demonstrate that you understand the distinction between God's knowledge of His own works and exhaustive knowledge of every future human choice.
(Ephesians 1:4) according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Supra.
and what individuals make up that group , us . (◔_◔)
So you're saying that your existence and membership in the Body of Christ were already infallibly settled before creation?
That you could never have failed to exist, or freely chosen not to become someone "in Christ," given God's supposedly fixed, infallible foreknowledge?
Do you realize what that does to your claim that people freely choose whether to accept Christ?
Do you not realize how arrogant you sound?
?
ooops what ?
are you say Jesus made a mistake choosing judas ?
No. Jesus chose Judas because he knew what kind of man he was, especialy after the three years he spent interacting with him on a personal level.
John 6:64-71 makes that clear.
But Jesus knowing Judas's character, and even knowing that Judas would betray Him, does not establish exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge of every future human choice.
God accomplished His purpose through Judas's actions without thereby needing exhaustive knowledge of every decision every human being would ever make.
(Romans 13:1) Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.
And?
The passage concerns governing authority and those who exercise it.
God establishing governing authority doesn't require Him to predetermine every individual who will hold office or every decision those individuals will make.
Read the following verses. Paul is discussing the responsibility of rulers to punish evil and approve what is good.
How does that establish that God infallibly knows every future decision made by every ruler?
It doesn't.
Once again, you're confusing God's authority and His purposes with exhaustive foreknowledge of human choices.
all I was saying is , it is God that chose us first we didn't chose God first
And?
Nobody is disputing that God initiated His plan of salvation and established its terms.
That doesn't mean He infallibly knew every individual who would respond to Him, much less every future decision those individuals would make.
open theist are all about free will and all
You never answered my question.
Is God free to change the future He infallibly knows about?
If He already infallibly knows that He will do A tomorrow, is He free to choose B instead?
And if not, in what sense is God free to do otherwise?
all ,is not some ,it's All , and from eternity
has done, is doing, will do , from eternity
that takes :
exhaustive infallible foreknowledge
(Acts 15:18) All His works are known to God from eternity.
Supra. Repeating the same assertion doesn't make it true.
one type of work that God knows about
(Philippians 1:6) being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,
Again, God knows what He has begun and what He intends to finish.
That doesn't establish exhaustive, infallible foreknowledge of every future human choice.
so explain how God knows All these works that he will do in us that he knew from eternity without knowing our choices or actions?
Done.
God knows His own works, His purposes, His intentions, and the promises He has made.
He also possesses the power and wisdom necessary to accomplish what He intends.
None of that requires Him to infallibly know every future choice made by every human being.
You're assuming that God's knowledge of what He intends to accomplish requires exhaustive knowledge of every decision anyone might make along the way.
It doesn't.
And even if you could establish that God knows every future work He will perform in believers generally, you'd still need to explain how that establishes exhaustive foreknowledge of every future choice made by every human being.
You won't respond to it though. At least not rationally.
