Honest struggles on God’s omniscience.

[way 2 go]

You are a stupid waste of time.

Good bye!

#20
The relevant question is:

At the moment when God already infallibly believed that they would not repent, could they instead repent while that actual belief remained a fact of the past?

If yes, God’s belief could be false.

If no, repentance was not genuinely possible in the actual history.

we have an example in the bible , yes here it is again
(Revelation of John 16:11) and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they repented not of their works.

let the open theist pretend its settled future for a minute
so my answer is , no and they're are free
open theist answer , yes and they're are free

the only thing that is necessary is God's belief

we are both going to do things today and we both believe we do them freely
the only thing that is necessary is God's belief
I believe God knows what I am about to do , open theist believe the opposite
and it makes no difference

 

[way 2 go]

The movie The Game with Sean Penn and Michael Douglas depicts a scenario where prediction is very advanced.

reminded me of the Truman show , only in reverse , paranoid ,who is in on it .
was he free to choose ?

 

[way 2 go]

At this point (actually its probably been for a long time) your engaging with this idiot is only serving to grant him legitimacy that he hasn't ever deserved but might have been afforded because of some doubt that existed as to whether he was coming from a place of honest error. He is not. His error is not one of the intellect but of the heart. He does not want to believe in a God of righteousness (i.e. actual righteousness, justice and love). He doesn't even know what those words mean when applied to God. He couldn't tell you if his life depended on it (and it does). Worse than that, he doesn't want to know and angrily rejects anything anyone says in any effort to communicate it to him.

He's interested in his religion, not the truth. Your debating him gives him grounds to believe that they are the same thing.

confession through projection ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[way 2 go]

If only @way 2 go believed the Bible as written.

word of faith theology “You are gods” Psalm 82:6 / John 10:34

John 10:34-35 [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

 

[Right Divider]

word of faith theology “You are gods” Psalm 82:6 / John 10:34

John 10:34-35 [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

You're almost like a cult member, the way you quote random verses out of context.

Psa 82:6 (KJV) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 (KJV) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Read the whole thing instead of just a tiny fragment.

 

[way 2 go]

God can accurately predict particular events because:

1. He knows what He Himself intends to accomplish.
2. He can arrange circumstances and intervene to secure an outcome.
3. He understands people and institutions well enough to predict their behavior with extraordinary accuracy.

The crucifixion was something God intended to accomplish, not an event He passively watched approaching.

Even if every detail you listed was infallibly guaranteed, that would establish God’s knowledge, intention, or control concerning those particular events.

It would not establish exhaustive infallible foreknowledge of every future free choice made by everyone.

Your inference is:

- God accurately predicted and guaranteed particular events.
- Therefore, God infallibly knows every future free choice.

That conclusion does not follow.

it does follow
highly detailed foreknowledge of the crucifixion and what everybody else would do proves God can know
Daniel & Revelation says he knows the beginning the middle and the end .Isaiah 46:10

open theism arbitrarily says God is incapable of exhaustive foreknowledge ,
what is God's limitation ,what restrains God ?

 

[Nick M]

Read the whole thing instead of just a tiny fragment.

He can't. It will invalidate his point. He is not acting in good faith. It is obvious.

 

[way 2 go]

You're almost like a cult member, the way you quote random verses out of context.

Psa 82:6 (KJV) I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 (KJV) But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Read the whole thing instead of just a tiny fragment.

I know and you know but the word of faith people hold onto this verse like a fat kid loves candy

John 10:34-35 [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

when an open theist holds that God did not know where Adam & Eve were because God said "where are you"
its the same thing as word of faith people

 

[way 2 go]

He can't. It will invalidate his point. He is not acting in good faith. It is obvious.

open theism holds onto the literal when they shouldn't

 

[way 2 go]

the preist freely offering judas 30 pieces of silver
judas freely choosing to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver
judas freely choosing to give the silver back
priests used the money to buy the potter's field

but open theism ? God maybe has some foreknowledge ... but he can't have exhaustive foreknowledge

 

[Derf]

the preist freely offering judas 30 pieces of silver
judas freely choosing to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver
judas freely choosing to give the silver back
priests used the money to buy the potter's field

but open theism ? God maybe has some foreknowledge ... but he can't have exhaustive foreknowledge

Exhaustive foreknowledge requires that God never changes His prediction. When God said Hezekiah would die of his illness, then said He would add 15 years to his life, which result was the true foreknowledge God had from the foundation of the world? Does God have exhaustive foreknowledge about what He Himself will do (take Hezekiah's life early or let him live 15 more years)? You can give evidence all day long for foreknowledge without proving exhaustive foreknowledge, but Hezekiah learned that God can change what He knows.

 

[Idolater]

reminded me of the Truman show , only in reverse , paranoid ,who is in on it .
was he free to choose ?

ofc he was free. There is never any question "Nicholas" is free the whole entire time, even though "Consumer Recreation Services" knew exactly where to place the inflatable airbag. This is why the movie's important: I don't remember if there is vulgarity or scandalous content, I only remember the premise and the basic plot: It's clear that it's plausible that God would know at least what the fictional "Consumer Recreation Services" knew about "Nicholas", about all of us. So God, just from that, would know with exceptional accuracy, predictions about what we'd do in the future, even while we retain fully our free will.

But then add in that God directs circumstances and situations, all the things beyond the control of free will agents like us. He knows us extremely well, better than we know ourselves, and, He also happens to have direct control over our circumstances. So therefore His predictions are going to be very good. And remember, our own predictions are already very good, so God's accuracy in predicting is much better than even we are at prediction, and we are very good at it. So how good is He?

Classical Theism needn't believe in exhaustive definite foreknowledge as some mystical superpower, to believe that God perfectly predicts the future, including human free will choices. Classical Theism need only believe in the basic premise of The Game, but irl.

 

[JudgeRightly]

#20
The relevant question is:

At the moment when God already infallibly believed that they would not repent, could they instead repent while that actual belief remained a fact of the past?

If yes, God’s belief could be false.

If no, repentance was not genuinely possible in the actual history.

we have an example in the bible , yes here it is again
(Revelation of John 16:11) and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they repented not of their works.

let the open theist pretend its settled future for a minute
so my answer is , no and they're are free
open theist answer , yes and they're are free

the only thing that is necessary is God's belief

we are both going to do things today and we both believe we do them freely
the only thing that is necessary is God's belief
I believe God knows what I am about to do , open theist believe the opposite
and it makes no difference

confession through projection ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

word of faith theology “You are gods” Psalm 82:6 / John 10:34

John 10:34-35 [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

it does follow
highly detailed foreknowledge of the crucifixion and what everybody else would do proves God can know
Daniel & Revelation says he knows the beginning the middle and the end .Isaiah 46:10

open theism arbitrarily says God is incapable of exhaustive foreknowledge ,
what is God's limitation ,what restrains God ?

I know and you know but the word of faith people hold onto this verse like a fat kid loves candy

John 10:34-35 [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

when an open theist holds that God did not know where Adam & Eve were because God said "where are you"
its the same thing as word of faith people

open theism holds onto the literal when they shouldn't

the preist freely offering judas 30 pieces of silver
judas freely choosing to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver
judas freely choosing to give the silver back
priests used the money to buy the potter's field

but open theism ? God maybe has some foreknowledge ... but he can't have exhaustive foreknowledge

Saying it doesn't make it so.

We're done. Believe whatever you want. I'm never going to convince you otherwise.

 

[Derf]

but open theism ? God maybe has some foreknowledge ... but he can't have exhaustive foreknowledge

Btw, Open Theists don't say God "can't" have exhaustive foreknowledge so much as that God doesn't want to have exhaustive foreknowledge. He made man to be a relational creature (something you picked up in earlier posts), and relational means that you actually respond to what the other person says and does, not just to the settled future of the person. As long as God is merely working with settled knowledge of what we do and say, He is trapped in a screenplay of His own making. He already knows exactly what He will do (throughout all time) based on knowing exactly what we will do, which is based on previous events that He knew exactly.

But if God knows exactly what we will do in a particular time, and He decides to change the result, He is no longer working with His foreknowledge, since the previous foreknowledge was incorrect. Now He has changed what He foreknows. Can God do that? Do you think He is capable of changing what He foreknows (like the case of Hezekiah, for instance)? If you do, you are an open theist.

Let me give an example. If God foreknows that you will be run over by a bus tomorrow, and He hears you pray for safety, He will answer your prayer (presumably) and change the circumstances so that you are not run over by a bus (maybe he causes you to sleep past your alarm, so you are going to work later than you were going to go on that day). Do you think God can do that? Do you think He does do that?

But you may answer that God would already know all of the details about what would happen in every instance, including that you would pray for safety, and He would answer that prayer, even though the actual event is never going to happen, because He has already "heard" your prayer and answered it before He created the world, right? But that means that God, in the act of fore-answering every prayer, including those things He knows before we even pray for them. He pre-determines ("ordains", perhaps) every event that will ever take place. That's called determinism, or Calvinism.

 

[way 2 go]

Exhaustive foreknowledge requires that God never changes His prediction. When God said Hezekiah would die of his illness, then said He would add 15 years to his life, which result was the true foreknowledge God had from the foundation of the world?

the 15 years was always the plan

Does God have exhaustive foreknowledge about what He Himself will do (take Hezekiah's life early or let him live 15 more years)? You can give evidence all day long for foreknowledge without proving exhaustive foreknowledge, but Hezekiah learned that God can change what He knows.

we are told to always pray 1Thes 5:17, which is what being told you're going to die inspired ,
to us the future is open even if God has exhaustive foreknowledge

 

[JudgeRightly]

the 15 years was always the plan

Your theology turns God into a liar, you blasphemer!

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live. ’ ”

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Kings 20:1 - New King James Version

Hezekiah’s Life Extended - In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[way 2 go]

Your theology turns God into a liar, you blasphemer!

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live. ’ ”

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Kings 20:1 - New King James Version

Hezekiah’s Life Extended - In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”

www.biblegateway.com

talk about does not follow

God didn't lie , had Hezekiah not been told he was dying he would not have prayed and he would have died .

 

[JudgeRightly]

talk about does not follow

God didn't lie , had Hezekiah not been told he was dying he would not have prayed and he would have died .

You're not listening to what I'm saying.

Read what I said again.

 

[Derf]

the 15 years was always the plan

Was it? When God said He would "add" 15 years to Hezekiah's days, what was He adding to?

we are told to always pray 1Thes 5:17, which is what being told you're going to die inspired ,
to us the future is open even if God has exhaustive foreknowledge

So you are saying that even though the plan is already settled, and God knows everything we are going to do, we still have to ACT like God might change His mind? I'm not sure I understand the benefit of a theology that requires that you act like your theology is false.

talk about does not follow

God didn't lie , had Hezekiah not been told he was dying he would not have prayed and he would have died .

God told Hezekiah the thing that was NOT the plan in order for Hezekiah to achieve the thing that was the plan? Are you saying God had to lie to Hezekiah in order for the truth to happen? This seems uncharacteristic of God to me. We are told that God "cannot" lie:
Titus 1:2 KJV - In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

But as long as God can tell people something that is not true in order to get them to achieve what He wants them to achieve, why can't that apply with the passage in Revelation? What if God tells them that they won't repent, but He really wants them to repent, so He tells them they won't so that they actually will repent? This would be in keeping with your view of what happened in Hezekiah, right?

Compare:
First God told Hezekiah that he would die and not live:
Isaiah 38:1 KJV - In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.

Then God told Hezekiah He would not die, but would live an additional 15 years:
Isaiah 38:5 KJV - Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

In Revelation 9, God tells them something bad will happen to them and they will not repent:
Revelation 9:20 KJV - And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Revelation 9:21 KJV - Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Eventually we will find out the rest of the story, where He only tells them that in order to get them to pray and repent, at which time He will tell them the real plan, that they will be with God in heaven forever, because they prayed and repented. Unfortunately, Rev 9 only gives us the first part of the story, whereas we know both parts of the story about Hezekiah.

 

[way 2 go]

Was it? When God said He would "add" 15 years to Hezekiah's days, what was He adding to?

from the time of the healing

So you are saying that even though the plan is already settled, and God knows everything we are going to do, we still have to ACT like God might change His mind?

to us the future is open even if God has exhaustive foreknowledge

I'm not sure I understand the benefit of a theology that requires that you act like your theology is false.

who is conforming tho whom ,open theism has God conforming to man , classic theism has man conforming to God

I'm not sure what the benefit is of taking verses literally that shouldn't be taken literally

(Genesis 3:9 ) And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?

(Genesis 13:13) But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD, exceedingly so.
(Genesis 18:21) I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which has come to Me. And if not, I will know.

God told Hezekiah the thing that was NOT the plan in order for Hezekiah to achieve the thing that was the plan? Are you saying God had to lie to Hezekiah in order for the truth to happen? This seems uncharacteristic of God to me. We are told that God "cannot" lie:
Titus 1:2 KJV - In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

didn't lie
are you a god?
John 10:34-35 [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),

But as long as God can tell people something that is not true in order to get them to achieve what He wants them to achieve, why can't that apply with the passage in Revelation? What if God tells them that they won't repent, but He really wants them to repent, so He tells them they won't so that they actually will repent? This would be in keeping with your view of what happened in Hezekiah, right?

nope
(Revelation of John 4:1) After these things I looked, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet, speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show thee what must happen after these things

God tells of the judgements and they did not repent

(Jeremiah 18:7-8) [7] At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; [8] If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Compare:
First God told Hezekiah that he would die and not live:
Isaiah 38:1 KJV - In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.

Then God told Hezekiah He would not die, but would live an additional 15 years:
Isaiah 38:5 KJV - Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

In Revelation 9, God tells them something bad will happen to them and they will not repent:
Revelation 9:20 KJV - And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Revelation 9:21 KJV - Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Eventually we will find out the rest of the story, where He only tells them that in order to get them to pray and repent, at which time He will tell them the real plan, that they will be with God in heaven forever, because they prayed and repented. Unfortunately, Rev 9 only gives us the first part of the story, whereas we know both parts of the story about Hezekiah.

open theism does believe they might repent


(Revelation of John 22:19) And if anyone takes away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.