On the omniscience of God

[Adam]

Then He needed the "gory details" to make a righteous judgment? And His other sources of information are not trustworthy, apparently?

Yeah, He really might have. There have been times where he needed to know the details so that He could rightly judge the matter. Cain and David both were guilty of murder but received different punishments. God looks at the entire matter, when necessary, to know what kind of judgment needed to be meted.

 

[Derf]

Or He is the Living God and sometimes likes to see things for Himself?

Don't you think that a God who can hear from heaven could also see from heaven?
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV — If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

And He can certainly see from heaven enough to know if men anywhere seek God:
Psalm 53:2 KJV — God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

I don't disagree with you in this sense, that He wanted to experience the wickedness in some way. What I've suggested is that He was giving them a chance to repent by sending His angels (not going Himself, necessarily, since it was angels Lot seemed to deal with) to test the people of Sodom.

And if only angels, how is that different from how He previously received the information about Sodom's wickedness?

 

[Derf]

Yeah, He really might have. There have been times where he needed to know the details so that He could rightly judge the matter. Cain and David both were guilty of murder but received different punishments. God looks at the entire matter, when necessary, to know what kind of judgment needed to be meted.

And often tests the people to see if they will repent, like Noah preaching righteousness and Jonah going Nineveh.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Don't you think that a God who can hear from heaven could also see from heaven?
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV — If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

And He can certainly see from heaven enough to know if men anywhere seek God:
Psalm 53:2 KJV — God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

I don't disagree with you in this sense, that He wanted to experience the wickedness in some way. What I've suggested is that He was giving them a chance to repent by sending His angels (not going Himself, necessarily, since it was angels Lot seemed to deal with) to test the people of Sodom.

And if only angels, how is that different from how He previously received the information about Sodom's wickedness?

God led Israel personally through the wilderness as a pillar of fire and pillar of cloud. He's not averse to doing things "in person."

And while we're on the topic... Let's not forget what time of year it is. God Himself came down as a baby in a manger to save humanity from their sins.

There's no scriptural reason to force God to always remain in Heaven when interacting with His creation. Is that the norm? Perhaps. But it's not a rule that can never be broken.

God wants a relationship with His creation.

 

[Adam]

God led Israel personally through the wilderness as a pillar of fire and pillar of cloud. He's not averse to doing things "in person."

And while we're on the topic... Let's not forget what time of year it is. God Himself came down as a baby in a manger to save humanity from their sins.

There's no scriptural reason to force God to always remain in Heaven when interacting with His creation. Is that the norm? Perhaps. But it's not a rule that can never be broken.

God wants a relationship with His creation.

Amen, and He also walked bodily in the garden with Adam, and I believe that he met Cain face to face. He also met with Abram/Abraham, Moses, Manoah, Daniel, Ezekiel and others. He wasn't talking to these people from the sky, he was on earth, in a body, interacting with them face-to-face.

 

[Derf]

God led Israel personally through the wilderness as a pillar of fire and pillar of cloud. He's not averse to doing things "in person."

And while we're on the topic... Let's not forget what time of year it is. God Himself came down as a baby in a manger to save humanity from their sins.

There's no scriptural reason to force God to always remain in Heaven when interacting with His creation. Is that the norm? Perhaps. But it's not a rule that can never be broken.

God wants a relationship with His creation.

For sure! And that's my point. I had said earlier in the thread that the reason I think God had to "go down and see" was not that He didn't know enough to make a righteous judgment, but that He wanted to see if the cause was hopeless, at least so far as the circumstances warranted*. That's part of the relationship aspect. God's mercifulness allows for repentance before His justice demands destruction.

*Since Jesus said they would have repented if they saw the works He did in Capernaum 2000 years later.
Matthew 11:23 KJV — And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

 

[Crede2]

I wasn't ... but you know, if you have to believe that, that's fine. :carryon:

You were… but you know, if you have to continue to lie about it, that’s fine.

 

[Idolater]

You were… but you know, if you have to continue to lie about it, that’s fine.

Think what you want. You're the one who is no longer willing to subject what you believe to scrutiny, not me.

"Carry on."

 

[Idolater]

As I said, Carry on.

Or don't, and get in the arena.¹ Expose your views, subject them to scrutiny.

Either way. It's your free will choice. Whether or not God already knows your choice, it's your free will.


¹ Theology Online TOL is an arena, in case you didn't know. And some TOL users just fight dirty.² There are no holds barred here, except Acts 9ers are advantaged, but it's just part of the architecture of the arena that is TOL.

² Part of the reason your post way back was interesting was because of how many former TOL users just stopped. Years and years and years of engagement and content creation and then nothing. No farewell. It was just, one day, they never showed up again.³

³ Some of those, many, have died. That's one of those internet first generation situations. The people who have died were middle aged, most of them, when they started participating and getting in the arena at TOL. And now they're dead. They didn't think they would die when they started participating. It's a first generation internet thing. You can't replicate that situation today, it was only in the early, say first 15 years, c. 1996-2011, when people everywhere but also at TOL, just weren't thinking they would die someday and all this content was just going to persist and survive them, so get a unique insight to how people acted and behaved when in such a bubble.

But TOL is irl, but on the internet. Just like nee_Twitter X. And other places. And nee_Twitter X is an arena as well, no doubt, but over there, the whole World's not really watching what's going on, the algorithm's doing at least one thing and it's that the whole World is most definitely NOT watching, but at TOL no algorithm succeeds except the latest posts.

But, as the active members of TOL dwindles, so does it become very clear who is saying what and who is winning. The whole World is watching that. Don't ask me why. But even of this very editing of my last post, there were over 2000 visitors to TOL, all looking at different threads.

TOL is better than AI if you're looking for theological debate and arguments. This is all real people, arguing about God with one another, spanning back now I think 30 years.

AI knows Thomas Aquinas. Whenever there's a theological question AI's going to quote Thomas Aquinas, and it would be interesting if someone had a TOL account that just posted as Thomas Aquinas, but the fact is Thomas Aquinas would have his work cut out for him at TOL. His Summa would get picked apart at TOL. It's an arena. And people fight dirty.

But all's to say, can you at least admit by now after all this time that I didn't question your faith?

 

[Crede2]

But all's to say, can you at least admit by now after all this time that I didn't question your faith?

Fair enough.