Battle Royale XIV discussion thread

Dartman

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Speaking of Jesus:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. - Genesis 1:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:1&version=NKJV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
So far NONE of this is about Jesus. It states that God created the heavens and the earth. We KNOW God used His words:

Gen 1:3 And God SAID, Let there be light: and there was light.



There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
STILL no mention of Jesus. But we ARE told that John was "sent from God". This is an important point in understanding how Jesus from Nazareth, John's relative, was ALSO "sent from God", and "sent from heaven".
Matt 21:25-26 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
NOW Jesus is being discussed!!
And the world (civilization that "did not know him") WAS created by Jesus. And Paul goes into much more detail in Col 1, by clearly defining the COSMOS being discussed:
Col 1:16 ... whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Absolutely, Jesus created the COSMOS in which the New Testament was written, and in which we live.
BUT, it is ALSO absolutely clear that he DID NOT create the "heavens and the earth". His GOD created the universe, and Jesus is the creator's "holy servant":

Acts 4:24-30 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is Thou who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say,

'Why did the Gentiles rage,And the peoples devise futile things? 26'The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'

27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur. 29 "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Thy bond-servants may speak Thy word with all confidence, 30 while Thou dost extend Thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus. "
 

Dartman

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According to Jesus if He is not God then He is not good.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jesus is correcting the man's statement.
Jesus isn't to be considered "good" in comparison to his God.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
 

JudgeRightly

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So far NONE of this is about Jesus.

Wrong.

"In the beginning was the LOGOS. And the LOGOS was with God and God was the LOGOS. HE was in the beginning with God."

Who is "HE" in the above portion of the text?

It is none other than Jesus, who is the Light, as John continues to write.

It states that God created the heavens and the earth.

The Bible also states that Jesus created the world.

It's very telling that you completely ignored Colossians 1:16 that I quoted. Here it is again, talking about Jesus:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:15-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:15-18&version=NKJV

The ONLY Person this could POSSIBLY be talking about is JESUS!

We KNOW God used His words:

Gen 1:3 And God SAID, Let there be light: and there was light.

Still begging the question that "LOGOS" means "word."

STILL no mention of Jesus.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

But we ARE told that John was "sent from God". This is an important point in understanding how Jesus from Nazareth, John's relative, was ALSO "sent from God", and "sent from heaven".
Matt 21:25-26 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.

Red herring.

NOW Jesus is being discussed!!

Jesus was already being discussed, as shown above.

And the world (civilization that "did not know him") WAS created by Jesus.

See the passage from Colossians 1 above.

And Paul goes into much more detail in Col 1, by clearly defining the COSMOS being discussed:
Col 1:16 ... whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Try reading the context I provided. There is no way to understand the passage other than that by Jesus, all things were created. The context doesn't allow for anything else.

Simple as that. Thank you for conceding the discussion.

Absolutely, Jesus created the COSMOS

AKA the universe.

in which the New Testament was written, and in which we live.

Red herring.

BUT, it is ALSO absolutely clear that he DID NOT create the "heavens and the earth".

Saying it doesn't make it so.

His GOD created the universe,

Jesus is the one who created, because He IS God.

and Jesus is the creator's "holy servant":

Jesus IS the Creator, AND He is His Father's Holy Servant.

It's not "either/or." It's "both/and."

Acts 4:24-30 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is Thou who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say,

'Why did the Gentiles rage,And the peoples devise futile things? 26'The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'

27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur. 29 "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Thy bond-servants may speak Thy word with all confidence, 30 while Thou dost extend Thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus. "

Supra.
 

JudgeRightly

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Jesus is correcting the man's statement.

Was Jesus good? Yes or no.

Jesus isn't to be considered "good" in comparison to his God.

Was Jesus good at all?

If your answer is anything but "YES, Jesus was good," then you need to provide the evidence that you have that He was not, in fact, good.
 

marke

Well-known member
Jesus is correcting the man's statement.
Jesus isn't to be considered "good" in comparison to his God.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jesus is the Son of God which makes Him God the Son. Sinners cannot understand the triune nature of God with minds focused on earthly things in preference over the wisdom and dominion of God.
 

Clete

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Jesus is the Son of God which makes Him God the Son. Sinners cannot understand the triune nature of God with minds focused on earthly things in preference over the wisdom and dominion of God.
There isn't anything mystical about Dartman's understand or lack thereof. He chooses to "misunderstand" and ignore the truth that has been clearly shown to him in this very thread and probably dozens of times before.
 

marke

Well-known member
There isn't anything mystical about Dartman's understand or lack thereof. He chooses to "misunderstand" and ignore the truth that has been clearly shown to him in this very thread and probably dozens of times before.
Those who refuse to believe Jesus is God are no doubt dangerously deluded by the devil, and that is a very bad sign.
 

Clete

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Those who refuse to believe Jesus is God are no doubt dangerously deluded by the devil, and that is a very bad sign.
Perhaps indirectly. While he gets credit, in one way or the other, for all the evil in the cosmos, my bet is that Satan doesn't even know that Dartman exists.
 

Dartman

Active member
"iIn the beginning was the LOGOS. And the LOGOS was with God and God was the LOGOS. HE was in the beginning with God."

Who is "HE" in the above portion of the text?
There is no "he" in the Greek. The masculine personal pronoun is translator bias.
It's very telling that you completely ignored Colossians 1:16 that I quoted.
I quoted Col 1:16
Jesus IS the Creator, AND He is His Father's Holy Servant.

You are correct Jesus is his Father's holy servant ... and Jesus is the Creators holy servant. Thus, Jesus is NOT the creator in Genesis, his God is.
The Father is.
 

Dartman

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Acts 4:24-30 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is Thou who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Thy servant, didst say,

'Why did the Gentiles rage,And the peoples devise futile things? 26'The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord, and against His Christ.'

27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur. 29 "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Thy bond-servants may speak Thy word with all confidence, 30 while Thou dost extend Thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus. "

None of you have actually explained this text.
Please do so.
 

Dartman

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Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images.

Jesus is Jehovah's servant, and the recipient of Jehovah's spirit.

Jehovah is the one who .. created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
 

Dartman

Active member
The New Testament usage of "COSMOS" is always .... always .... about civilization.

Here are two classic illustrations of this fact;

1 Cor 1:20-28 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:



1 Cor 2 1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

These phrases are discussing values/wisdom/thinking/spirit of man, of man's civilization. They are NOT discussing the universe!
 

JudgeRightly

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There is no "he" in the Greek.

You're obfuscating. SOMETHING/SOMEONE "was in the beginning WITH GOD.

HOUTOS definition according to Strong's: "this; he, she, it."

It is also used to mean: he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.

And it is translated as (count): This (750), These things (223), these (176), he (52), Him (23), That (23), of these (17), of this (17), this one (17), of these things (7), to this (7), she (6), than these (5), those (5), to Him (4), by this (3), it (3), purpose (3), thing (3), thus (3), with this (3), For this (2), of them (2), of this one (2), she herself (2), them (2), therefore (2), they (2), Things (2), this man (2), to this one (2), with these (2), ... of this (1), about these things (1), all things (1), As these (1), as to these (1), But this (1), by that (1), he who (1), hereunto (1), in that (1), in these (1), In this (1), man (1), of those (1), one (1), same (1), such (1), such things (1), than these things (1), than this (1), the fact that (1), themselves (1), they are (1), this sort (1), those things (1), with her (1), with them (1).

So apply ANY of those to the verse. You still have to answer the question: "HOUTOS" refers to... _____. (Fill in the blank.)

Keep in mind that what- or whoever you put in, must be consistently applied to the rest of the passage, and that everything that is said about it must fit the context.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.____ was in the beginning with God.All things were made through ____, and without ____ nothing was made that was made.In ____ was life, and the life was the light of men.And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.____ was in the world, and the world was made through ____, and the world did not know ____.____ came to His own, and ____ own did not receive ____.But as many as received ____, to them ____ gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in ____ name:who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld ____ glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.John bore witness of ____ and cried out, saying, “This was ____ of whom I said, ‘____ who comes after me is preferred before me, for ____ was before me.’ ”And of ____ fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through ____ ____.No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, ____ has declared Him. - John 1:1-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-18&version=NKJV

So go ahead, fill in the blanks with ONE entity that you think fits, EXCLUDING "He" or "Him" or "Jesus Christ."

You cannot, nor will you, because the entire passage (barring the passage talking about John) is talking about Jesus Christ, and thus, "He" and "Him" are CORRECTLY used.

The masculine personal pronoun is translator bias.

Prove it.

I quoted Col 1:16

You ignored what I said about it.

You are correct Jesus is his Father's holy servant ... and Jesus is the Creators holy servant. Thus, Jesus is NOT the creator in Genesis, his God is.
The Father is.

Supra.

Compared to all other men, Jesus is the perfect example of sinlessness.

That's not what I asked.

I asked, "was Jesus good?"

You: [no response]

Compared to his God, NO.

You said, and I quote: "Jesus is the perfect example of sinlessness."

Is not God ALSO the perfect example of sinlessness? Or do you think that God is not sinless?

You ignored my challenge to your position. Here it is again:

If your answer is anything but "YES, Jesus was good," (to the above question, "Was Jesus good?") then you need to provide the evidence that you have that He was not, in fact, good.

Your answer was not clearly and unequivocally "YES, Jesus was good." Therefore:

YOU NEED TO PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE THAT HE WAS NOT, IN FACT, GOOD.

If you cannot do that, then you need to concede the point that Jesus was, in fact, good, for even you, yourself, admit that, and I quote, "Jesus is the perfect example of sinlessness."

In what way was Jesus not good?

His Father is the source of all goodness,

Red herring.

Jesus is the "IMAGE" of his God.

Is the image of God not good?
 

Dartman

Active member
You're obfuscating. SOMETHING/SOMEONE "was in the beginning WITH GOD.
The text repeatedly says God's words were with Him.

HOUTOS definition according to Strong's: "this; he, she, it."
Exactly. God's words were with God, and are God's identity ... they ARE God. What we know of God is provided to us in His words.
I asked, "was Jesus good?"

You: [no response]
Incorrect. You just didn't like my response.
In comparison to his "fellows", mankind ..... Jesus is the MOST good man that has ever lived.
In comparison to his GOD, no human, Jesus included, is good.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:


11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Hebrews 1:8-9 is Psalm 45, which is Messianic, but this is Psalm 102----this is directed to God, to the LORD, YHWH, "Jehovah"----this is very plainly calling Jesus God.

And it wasn't any Trinitarian fool, it was the author of Hebrews doing it. Just brashly assigning Psalm 102 to Jesus.

This isn't delicate, or subtle. That's probably why you miss it, because you're so used to subtle nuanced arguments for the Trinity, but it's right here in New Testament black-and-white. The author isn't hiding anything, nor pulling any punches. @Dartman can't handle it.

Hebrews 1:10----AND is the first word. It means it's a new Scripture being quoted, and that it goes with the immediately prior Scripture (Psalm 45), which follows Hebrews 1:8----which begins "But unto the Son he saith"

Non-Trinitarians can argue Jesus isn't God and God isn't the Trinity----but, they have to disagree with the author of Hebrews. Because this writer obviously, certainly, definitely is a Trinitarian.
 

Dartman

Active member
Hebrews 1:8-9 is Psalm 45, which is Messianic, but this is Psalm 102----this is directed to God, to the LORD, YHWH, "Jehovah"----this is very plainly calling Jesus God.
No, it is very plainly discussing Christ's God, "God, even THY God", mentioned in verse 9.
 

Dartman

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Believe whatever you want then! That's what you're going to do anyway.
I believe what the Bible STATES.
I refuse to believe doctrines that contradict the clear, simple statements of Scripture.
So far, not one of the trinitarian posters on this discussion have explained how Jehovah, the Father, can be Christ's God.
Jesus says that his Father is his God (John 20:17, Rev 3:12).
Jesus says that he does NOT know "the day nor the hour" .... and that ONLY his God, the Father, knows (Mark 13:32).
John recorded that the revelation was given to Jesus by his God, and then Jesus revealed it to John.

The simple truth is, the Bible makes clear and simple statements that establish Christ's Father as "the ONLY true God", and as "the Creator of heaven and earth", and that Jesus is the Creator's "holy servant".

The only Scriptures the trinitarians have are verses that are worded in such a way that they MIGHT infer concepts unique to the trinity ...... IF, and only if you ignore other interpretations of those texts that harmonize better with the plain and simple statements of Scripture.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I believe what the Bible STATES.
No you don't. Hebrews states Jesus is God. John states He's God. Paul states He's God. Peter states He's God. HE states He's God.

You just believe whatever you want, typical of a JW or a Mormon or whatever the heck kind of a ... Protestant thing you are.

I refuse to believe doctrines that contradict the clear, simple statements of Scripture.
No you don't.

So far, not one of the trinitarian posters on this discussion have explained how Jehovah, the Father, can be Christ's God.
Jesus says that his Father is his God (John 20:17, Rev 3:12).
Jesus says that he does NOT know "the day nor the hour" .... and that ONLY his God, the Father, knows (Mark 13:32).
John recorded that the revelation was given to Jesus by his God, and then Jesus revealed it to John.
And Psalm 45 says His God is God----so what lol!

The simple truth is, the Bible makes clear and simple statements that establish Christ's Father as "the ONLY true God", and as "the Creator of heaven and earth", and that Jesus is the Creator's "holy servant".

The only Scriptures the trinitarians have are verses that are worded in such a way that they MIGHT infer concepts unique to the trinity ...... IF, and only if you ignore other interpretations of those texts that harmonize better with the plain and simple statements of Scripture.
You need a bishop instead of just making yourself out to be your own pope.
 
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