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toldailytopic: In your opinion what are some of the most convincing pieces of evidenc

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Tehmill View Post
    He says you are a sinner and you are, He says you will die and you will.
    You haven't given me any proof God said those things. Yes, obviously I will die. All animals die. It's a fact of life. That isn't proof of the existence of one or more deities.

    Originally posted by Tehmill View Post
    The exactness with which Christ is foretold in scripture is stunning. I laugh me when see the mutterings of Nostradamus but Christ is told with exactitude.
    First, I have to disagree with you that the exactness is stunning. Much of what Christians use as proof of Jesus in the Hebrew Bible is warped interpretation and makes little sense.

    Secondly, even if it did matched...exactly how difficult would it be to copy one document into another? It isn't.

    Say my holy books describes a future hero to born in Jamaica. His mother will have dark hair. She will give birth on a warm night in the middle of the summer. The child's father will be a fair skinned man who works as an electrician. The people know this story.

    400 years later there is a cult who believes a man, Phillip Pedro, is a hero among the people. He can save them from their suffering. They come together to write about him. His story? He was born in Jamaica. His mother had dark hair. He was born at 3am in July. His father worked as an electrician.

    Now today, a couple thousand years later, we read both stories. Wow!!! How did they know? It must have been him. There isn't any other explanation. There isn't any way they were aware of the details of the hero, the details that had been passed down for generations and then wrote their own book to match those details. I mean, that just wouldn't be possible.

    It appears you are trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible. That just doesn't cut the mustard for any halfway serious conversation of the validity of Biblical accounts and certainly not as proof for the existence of God.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Dena View Post
      Why is it irrational?



      It is not impossible that god/s do not exist. Therefore, that is not evidence. All you provided here was some circular logic. This won't convince anyone.
      Dena I edited my post #59 in this thread and added a much more easily accessible article on explaining what Guysmiley said. (It's up a page, so you might have missed my edit )
      Marge: "Aren't you going to give him the last rites?"
      Rev. Lovejoy: "That's Catholic, Marge - you might as well ask me to do a voodoo dance."



      "Oh bother" said Pooh, as he chambered the next round.

      Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Son of Jack View Post
        The fact that there something at all is kind of working against your argument.
        He has an argument? Cynics and naysayers always have so much trouble making those.

        They like to assert what isn't but rarely want to speak of what they assert is.
        “To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

        ― Theodore Roosevelt

        Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem

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        • #64
          1. The real distinction between existence and essence in all creatures necessitates the existence of a God for whom existence and essence are the same, a God who is the very cause of existence in creatures.

          2. The essential multiplicity of every creature necessitates the existence of an absolutely unitary cause.

          And...you get the idea.

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          • #65
            The Incarnation
            and
            The Resurrection

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by xAvarice View Post
              This is a great question too, although I think it strays towards evidentialist Christianity... I suppose you have to seek it at some point, eh?

              I thought the whole point of faith was having no evidence or certainty, or the evidence was revelation or influence from God?

              If I were Christian the best way for me to defend it would be to say that all the evidence is personal and subjective.
              Some do say that. Here is what the Catholic Church says:


              II. WAYS OF COMING TO KNOW GOD

              31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

              32 The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.
              As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.7
              And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession [confessio]. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One [Pulcher] who is not subject to change?8

              33 The human person: with his openness to truth and beauty, his sense of moral goodness, his freedom and the voice of his conscience, with his longings for the infinite and for happiness, man questions himself about God's existence. In all this he discerns signs of his spiritual soul. The soul, the "seed of eternity we bear in ourselves, irreducible to the merely material",9 can have its origin only in God.

              34 The world, and man, attest that they contain within themselves neither their first principle nor their final end, but rather that they participate in Being itself, which alone is without origin or end. Thus, in different ways, man can come to know that there exists a reality which is the first cause and final end of all things, a reality "that everyone calls God".10

              35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.


              -Catechism of the Catholic Church

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              • #67
                Life
                Giraffe
                eyeball

                just a few out of millions!


                But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)
                Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)
                For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, 6 by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, 7 by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Dena View Post
                  It appears you are trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible. That just doesn't cut the mustard for any halfway serious conversation of the validity of Biblical accounts and certainly not as proof for the existence of God.
                  That is somewhat the thesis Dr. Simon Greenleaf attempted to make the most use of when he set out to use the evidence found in The Gospels to disprove Jesus. He was one of the world's foremost authorities on judiciary evidence, one of the founding professors of the Harvard Law School and during his research into the evidence of The Holy Scriptures came to the conclusion that not only do we have more evidence of Jesus having lived, died and rose from the dead but he also came to believe in Him as Saviour and Lord. His book, "Testimony of the Evangelists," is rather inexpensive on Amazon. It's a very lengthy book. You should at least read the summary of it found here...

                  http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...greenleaf.html

                  The most convincing argument that I read was the part where he described how the apostles spoke of themselves as failures and didn't use glowing words about themselves, as most any other author would do to give himself credibility. This he took as evidence of their sincerity.
                  "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                  If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    [QUOTE=Nick M;3448916]A rock can not create it self out of nothing. But a supreme being can.

                    This rocket is nowhere near as complex as the earth. Did it get here by magic, or did a creator (engineering team) create it?



                    Nick, can you tell me why it's so obvious that this rocket was built by man?

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                    • #70
                      the fine tuning of the universe and our planet,how atoms work etc.It then occured to me that there was something behind this.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Traditio View Post
                        1. The real distinction between existence and essence in all creatures necessitates the existence of a God for whom existence and essence are the same, a God who is the very cause of existence in creatures.

                        2. The essential multiplicity of every creature necessitates the existence of an absolutely unitary cause.

                        And...you get the idea.
                        And praytell what essence may that be....you may speculate and apply spurious intuitions yet, you simply don't know! Wholly unlike the existing rocket above...but that won't deter Nick!

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                        • #72


                          This does it for me!
                          I AM the pie lady!!

                          sigpic

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Knight View Post

                            toldailytopic: In your opinion what are some of the most convincing peices of evidence that God exists?

                            Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

                            John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
                            10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
                            11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
                            12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, the gave the right to become children of God,
                            13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
                            14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.


                            Romans1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to [all people], because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So [all people] are without excuse.
                            Jesus, God's Word, is foremost for me. I believe He has made Himself clearly seen.
                            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                            ? Yep

                            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Town Heretic View Post
                              I don't believe in the empirical approach, so I'd say the only convincing evidence for any adherent is found in the experience of God. Before that it's either a gamble or utility or both.
                              This.

                              All I am sure of are my own experiences, especially the profound changes which have occurred in my personality since my wife and I have been together.

                              I can interpret the changes (from selfish to selfless) as having a variety of causes, from "I really haven't changed, I'm just being manipulative" to "divine workings to bring about such a drastic reversal in my previous thought process and behavior".

                              I choose the latter (in addition to giving my amazing wife credit), partially because I'm optimistic, but mostly because it makes me work harder daily to maintain a selfless attitude and behavior.
                              God set me on this path, but I must choose to remain on it.

                              All I can offer others is my personal experience, and what I have gained from it, and trust that God will reach them.
                              I strive to always act in love toward others, especially those who have doubts or outright animosity toward religion or spirituality.

                              Attempting to logic-bomb someone into a conversion just leaves emotional shrapnel and alienating wounds.

                              I still consider "I wish there were more Christians like you" the greatest compliment I have ever received.
                              “In many ways the evidence of our faith is found in our ability to control our tongue (or our keyboard)."
                              -Adam Hamilton

                              “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”
                              -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Knight View Post
                                The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for May 9th, 2013 05:00 AM


                                toldailytopic: In your opinion what are some of the most convincing peices of evidence that God exists?






                                Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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                                My existence and felt relationship with the Whole.

                                What more do I need?
                                “Behind the barricades of pre-established structures, the foxes of the intellect may engage in clever reasoning, but the lion of Being continues to roar outside the gate.” ~ Tarthang Tulku

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