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  • Bright Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
    Nowhere. John 10:30 KJV contradicts that idea.
    Your quoted scripture points to a triune God as do John 1:1 and 14.

    Leave a comment:


  • Idolater
    replied
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    And where within your explanation have you proved that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not one in the same God?
    Nowhere. John 10:30 KJV contradicts that idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bright Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
    This is clear:
    My argument is that the Father, Son, and Spirit being mentioned all together in one sentence, three different times in three different places in the Scripture, by three different people, proves distinction between the Father, Son, and Spirit---not unity. Furthermore my argument for the distinction between the Father and Son particularly, is based on the unitarian proposition that "Jesus is not God the Father," and my argument for unity, is based on the unitarian proposition that the Spirit is united /One with God in some sense, which all unitarians readily confess, along with that Jesus is not God the Father.

    It's done. "Is the Trinity biblical and taught in the Bible?" Yes to both. This thread's finally over.
    And where within your explanation have you proved that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not one in the same God?

    Leave a comment:


  • Idolater
    replied
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    How can there be a clear conclusion to such an inquiry. It will be unanswerable for all time.
    This is clear:
    My argument is that the Father, Son, and Spirit being mentioned all together in one sentence, three different times in three different places in the Scripture, by three different people, proves distinction between the Father, Son, and Spirit---not unity. Furthermore my argument for the distinction between the Father and Son particularly, is based on the unitarian proposition that "Jesus is not God the Father," and my argument for unity, is based on the unitarian proposition that the Spirit is united /One with God in some sense, which all unitarians readily confess, along with that Jesus is not God the Father.

    It's done. "Is the Trinity biblical and taught in the Bible?" Yes to both. This thread's finally over.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bright Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
    I read back the last two posts before mine and I don't see any clear conclusion to this inquiry. Like I said in mine there are three replies and the thing is concluded. The Catholic Trinity is indeed taught in the Bible. Unitarian talking points prove it.
    How can there be a clear conclusion to such an inquiry. It will be unanswerable for all time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Idolater
    replied
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Did you find anything of help?
    I read back the last two posts before mine and I don't see any clear conclusion to this inquiry. Like I said in mine there are three replies and the thing is concluded. The Catholic Trinity is indeed taught in the Bible. Unitarian talking points prove it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bright Raven
    replied
    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
    OK.
    And this is it.

    My thread has three replies, and proves the Trinity. You've 24 thousand replies and is there any conclusion?

    Of course in order to agree that my argument is valid and that my conclusion is correct, you'd need to admit that Catholicism dominated the first ten centuries of the Church's life, and I know that that's not going to happen.
    Spoiler

    Did you find anything of help?

    Leave a comment:


  • Idolater
    replied
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    Idolator, This is the thread I was speaking of.
    OK.
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    There is another thread of the same title with over 24,000 replies. You may want to look at it.
    And this is it.

    My thread has three replies, and proves the Trinity. You've 24 thousand replies and is there any conclusion?

    Of course in order to agree that my argument is valid and that my conclusion is correct, you'd need to admit that Catholicism dominated the first ten centuries of the Church's life, and I know that that's not going to happen.
    Spoiler
    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
    Jesus, Peter, and Paul each named the Father, Son, and Spirit in one sentence.

    Matthew 28:19 KJV
    1st Peter 1:2 KJV
    2 Corinthians 13:14 KJV

    There are two propositions regarding the Trinity; "God is the Trinity," and its negation, that, "It is not the case that God is the Trinity."

    I will use the term 'unitarian' to signify the latter proposition, and 'Catholic' to signify the former proposition.

    Both of these signifiers 'unitarian' and 'Catholic' are examples of the 'straw man' informal fallacy. I say that now, so that all those Unitarians who wish to argue will know already that I already admit that I've committed a straw man fallacy, and the same for all those Trinitarians who are not Catholic.

    Straw man.

    That the Father, Son, and Spirit are enumerated in one sentence shows distinction between the Father, Son, and Spirit. That there are three of these sentences in the New Testament underscores that distinction. That these three sentences originated from Jesus, Peter, and Paul further underscores it.

    Unitarians themselves admit that there is a distinction between the Father and the Son, and also they admit that the Spirit and God are united in some way.

    Therefore "God is the Trinity."

    I know what you're going to say---straw man.
    Originally posted by Idolater View Post
    My argument is that the Father, Son, and Spirit being mentioned all together in one sentence, three different times in three different places in the Scripture, by three different people, proves distinction between the Father, Son, and Spirit---not unity. Furthermore my argument for the distinction between the Father and Son particularly, is based on the unitarian proposition that "Jesus is not God the Father," and my argument for unity, is based on the unitarian proposition that the Spirit is united /One with God in some sense, which all unitarians readily confess, along with that Jesus is not God the Father.

    Leave a comment:


  • Clete
    replied
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error.
    So, by what method does Matt Slick, the author of this silliness, propose to understand the bible if not by reason?


    How is it that anyone who is able to think at all can read such nonsense and not immediately detect the self contradiction, never mind write it?!

    Mr. Slick used reason to pick up the pen he used to write the article, he cites reason within the article, stating that a particular counter argument "is not logical", he then calls the veracity of reason into question with the above quoted nonsense and then he immediately followed it with more reason! His rational argument is as follows..

    Premise: The bible is true.
    Premise: The bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
    Conclusion: Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

    That's perfectly sound logical reasoning that Mr. Slick used his own human mind to engage, understand and convey! Where then does he find the rational deficiency in the human mind and by what method would he propose to search for it if not by reason itself? Indeed, he cannot even make the claim without the use of reason! It is just so much self-contradictory nonsense.

    If he had been content to state "The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself." and to leave it at that, it would be one thing. Where's the need to take it to this other level? By doing so, he tacitly admits that he believes the doctrine to be irrational! Some of his speculation about the relationships between the Father, Son and Spirit may well be irrational but his subordination conjecture is not what is at question. The bottom line is that there is information we do not have concerning the nature of God (duh!). As such we are to take what information we do have and accept it as true and trust God for a fuller understanding at a later time. No one aught to ever allow their mind to accept anything that is irrational nor should we undermine all of rational thought by ascribing to God some super-rational attribute. As I explained in my previous post, no such attribute is possible anyway.

    Clete

    Leave a comment:


  • Clete
    replied
    Originally posted by lifeisgood View Post
    One of the best explanations of where we got the "Trinity", which is a Jewish concept, even though people deny it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJbOi5Z7Y8U
    Instead of simply posting a link to a two hour long video that next to no one is going to bother to watch, why not post the gist of the video?

    Tell us the major points discussed in the video and how they are supported.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bright Raven
    replied
    Idolator, This is the thread I was speaking of.

    Leave a comment:


  • lifeisgood
    replied
    One of the best explanations of where we got the "Trinity", which is a Jewish concept, even though people deny it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJbOi5Z7Y8U

    Leave a comment:


  • Bright Raven
    replied
    What is the Trinity?
    by Matt Slick
    11/24/08

    Trinity graphic, Father, Son, and Holy SpiritThe word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I" and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods but one God. There are three individual subsistences or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self-awareness. The Trinity is three of these though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the Trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

    The Trinity
    God is three persons.
    Each person is divine.
    There is only one God.
    Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God, there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

    Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
    Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
    Each of the three persons is related to the other two but are distinct from them.
    The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, but this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all-knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all-powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere" are not found in the Bible either; but we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.

    Is there subordination in the Trinity?
    There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity regarding order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).

    This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son, but this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband; but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). Of course, Jesus already is King; but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn't mean they are different from the one who sent him.

    Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way; but this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and the servant, we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.

    Is the Trinity confusing?
    Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp, but this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self-revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand--especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God's essence and nature is not possible. What we have done, however, is derived from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.

    It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical:

    Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."
    1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."
    2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
    Eph. 4:4-7, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."
    1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
    Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

    Leave a comment:


  • Clete
    replied
    Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post
    From gotquestions.org

    The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.



    The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who are God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

    1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

    2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

    In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

    3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

    4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

    5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

    6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

    The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

    The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

    The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).
    It is interesting how you, on one hand state that the Trinity doctrine cannot be understood but on the other hand claim sufficient understanding of it to categorically declare every other triune entity that we can come up with as being innadiquate to the task of making the doctrine understandable.

    Not that you're entirely wrong on that point. It just seems a bit ironic that you can be so dogmatic about a doctrine you claim not to understand.

    I for one don't see what's so hard to understand about it. Sure, there are details we are not given and so there is a mystery surrounding the triune nature of God but that doesn't mean that it's somehow beyond our ability to understand it if we were given those missing details. In other words, it isn't because there is some mystical aspect about the 'infinite God' that our 'finite brains' can't comprehend which prevents us from being capable of understanding the triune nature of God. On the contrary, it's merely a lack of information. To suggest otherwise would be to imply that God is super-rational, which is heresy (i.e. God is Reason (John 1:1).
    There can be no such thing at 'super-rational' anyway. The super-rational would be, by definition, super-real which is fallacious on it's face. Something is either real or it isn't, which is to say that something either exists or it does not. This is the first law of reason, the law of identity, "What is is." To say something is super-real is, therefore, inherently self-contradictory and therefore meaningless.

    Further, if you permit the 'super-rational' to exist in your doctrine, what you're really permitting is any doctrine whatsoever. If I came up with some wacky doctine that you didn't understand and that I couldn't explain, what's to stop me from playing the 'finite human brains can't understand it' trump card and calling your faith into question based on your lack of belief in my "super-rational" doctrine?

    See the problem?

    As for me, I'm content to take God at His word, as your post so nicely deliniates, and not worry about the information which God has seen fit to keep to Himself.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bright Raven
    replied
    From gotquestions.org

    The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.



    The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons. Understand that this is not in any way suggesting three Gods. Keep in mind when studying this subject that the word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture. This is a term that is used to attempt to describe the triune God—three coexistent, co-eternal Persons who are God. Of real importance is that the concept represented by the word “Trinity” does exist in Scripture. The following is what God’s Word says about the Trinity:

    1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

    2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

    In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

    3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

    4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

    5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

    6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

    The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

    The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    There have been many attempts to develop illustrations of the Trinity. However, none of the popular illustrations are completely accurate. The egg (or apple) fails in that the shell, white, and yolk are parts of the egg, not the egg in themselves, just as the skin, flesh, and seeds of the apple are parts of it, not the apple itself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not parts of God; each of them is God. The water illustration is somewhat better, but it still fails to adequately describe the Trinity. Liquid, vapor, and ice are forms of water. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not forms of God, each of them is God. So, while these illustrations may give us a picture of the Trinity, the picture is not entirely accurate. An infinite God cannot be fully described by a finite illustration.

    The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential. Rather than attempting to fully define the Trinity with our finite human minds, we would be better served by focusing on the fact of God's greatness and His infinitely higher nature. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).

    Leave a comment:

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