Does God Create Reprobates?

ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
REPROBATE: 1. Having lost all sense of duty; depraved. 2. Abandoned to punishment; condemned.
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Men become reprobates by rejecting Christ and his Gospel. Many are religious reprobates. After awhile the Holy Spirit gives up on them and they become reprobates.
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GOD is love and love is patient and never harms...HE will never give up on anyone. If someone is not saved, they CANNOT be saved!!! HE will never give up on anyone who can be saved.

To believe HE created us sinners in Adam is to believe HE created some for hell - no matter how many pages of theo-babble are written to double think one's way past this truth.
 
Dialogos

Dialogos

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
Condemned to die for sins, but not so dead we cannot seek God, and not so dead we cannot hear God.
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But that's not what the text says. It does not say that are condemned to die, that's your term. Paul is very specifically saying that they were, past tense, dead in trespasses and sins.

" And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked (Eph 2:1-2 ESV)"​

How do you explain the disharmony between your assertion that we are condemned to die (future tense) for our sins and Paul's assertion that we were all dead in our sins in which we once walked?

Furthermore, we've had this discussion on whether or not we can seek God in our flesh before. I've answered your post with my post here.

Did you have a chance to read it?

glordaz said:
And how about the Gentiles who do by nature the things contained in the law?
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How about them? They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their conscience brings them conflicting thoughts of both excuse and accusation.

The work of the law for them isn't any more helpful than the work of the law for the Jew.

That's why Paul sums up by saying:

" For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20 ESV)

Why would you assume that the conscience of the gentile does anything more than the law does for the Jew?

In both cases you get the knowledge of sin.


glordaz said:
"Dead to God" is your term. Where is that found in the Bible?
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Actually, it was Intojoy's but if you prefer dead in trespasses and sins, I'm fine with that.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Dialogos said:
But that's not what the text says. It does not say that are condemned to die, that's your term. Paul is very specifically saying that they were, past tense, dead in trespasses and sins.

" And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked (Eph 2:1-2 ESV)"​

How do you explain the disharmony between your assertion that we are condemned to die (future tense) for our sins and Paul's assertion that we were all dead in our sins in which we once walked?

Furthermore, we've had this discussion on whether or not we can seek God in our flesh before. I've answered your post with my post here.

Did you have a chance to read it?


How about them? They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their conscience brings them conflicting thoughts of both excuse and accusation.

The work of the law for them isn't any more helpful than the work of the law for the Jew.

That's why Paul sums up by saying:

" For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20 ESV)

Why would you assume that the conscience of the gentile does anything more than the law does for the Jew?

In both cases you get the knowledge of sin.




Actually, it was Intojoy's but if you prefer dead in trespasses and sins, I'm fine with that.
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Ya know what? I think you guys deliberately do this. Did you see the length of that post you cited? It's like trying to get a word in edge wise with some politician. By the time they pause to take a breath, a person is willing to sign the darn petition for the sake of some peace and quiet.

Why in the world would you try to turn this into something to do with justification? Oh.....I know why. It's that famous ploy known as redirection. Very clever. It goes perfectly with long winded speeches. :chuckle:

If you'd like me to answer any question from you....ask ONE.
 
Dialogos

Dialogos

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
Ya know what? I think you guys deliberately do this. Did you see the length of that post you cited?
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Yes, I wrote it myself ;)

glorydaz said:
It's like trying to get a word in edge wise with some politician. By the time they pause to take a breath, a person is willing to sign the darn petition for the sake of some peace and quiet.
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This isn't a very kind comparison to make of my posts.

I have no vested interest in you or anyone else "signing a petition."

Sometimes a thoughtful and careful examination of God's word takes a little thoughtfulness to write which means that it takes a little effort to read as well.
glorydaz said:
Why in the world would you try to turn this into something to do with justification?

Oh.....I know why. It's that famous ploy known as redirection. Very clever. It goes perfectly with long winded speeches. :chuckle:
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If you aren't going to read or reply to that post, then just say so.

There is no need to make the false accusation that I am trying to redirect the conversation like "some politician." That's a very uncharitable comparison.

My last post to you asked the same number of questions you asked me, the rest is an honest attempt to answer your questions.


glorydaz said:
If you'd like me to answer any question from you....ask ONE.
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My reply to you in this thread asked you only two questions. That's precisely the number of questions you asked me in your response.

Ok, If you are only willing to answer ONE question, then only ask ONE question. If you expect to have multiple questions answered, then I think its only fair you answer at least as many as you ask.

I'm fine only expecting you to answer a single question at a time.

Here it is:

How do you explain the disharmony between your assertion that we are condemned to die (future tense) for our sins and Paul's assertion that we were all dead in our sins in which we once walked?
 
intojoy

intojoy

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musterion said:
Simple. So simple, in fact, that you already know the answer:

Why do those who believe, believe?
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The elect are given divine enabling to excercise their will against its sin nature to which it was in bondage.

Did you make a mistake when you wrote that God elects some to unbelief?

One does not have to be of the elect to be predestined to hnbelief. All were in unbelief even the elect. The difference is God chose us for no goodness in us at all, He owes none of us anything and we have become the recipients of something we do not deserve and that which we did not even know we needed.
 
intojoy

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glorydaz said:
Ya know what? I think you guys deliberately do this. Did you see the length of that post you cited? It's like trying to get a word in edge wise with some politician. By the time they pause to take a breath, a person is willing to sign the darn petition for the sake of some peace and quiet.

Why in the world would you try to turn this into something to do with justification? Oh.....I know why. It's that famous ploy known as redirection. Very clever. It goes perfectly with long winded speeches. :chuckle:

If you'd like me to answer any question from you....ask ONE.
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Don't pull a j sugah on me."what about the Gentiles who by nature..."

This is simply answered as follows: the revelation of God given to the Gentiles thru nature is sufficient to condemn them for unbelief but not sufficient to save.

The revelation of God given to the Gentiles thru their conscience is sufficient to condemn but not sufficient to save.

Try another one.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Dialogos said:
Musterion asked:

I think this is exactly the right question to ask.

Musterion, how would you answer this question?
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The same way I've answered it for you in the past, which you've rejected every time:

They believe because God gave all of us the ability to believe Him...or to not believe Him. Just like Cain...if anyone was born "dead in sin" it was he, but God tried long and hard to reason with him. Why? Because even born "dead in sin," Cain had the ability to choose. So do we all. That's the only sane explanation of why He also pleads with us all through Paul.

The only alternative is that all of human history really is the elaborate puppetoon that honest Calvinists purport it to be. But if that's true, then He really is a liar for condemning for unbelief those He knows will not believe because the only reason they won't believe is because they CAN'T. And the reason they can't is because HE didn't want them to...or at least didn't want them to badly enough to elect them. Either way, the result is the same: He's condemning them all for the exact thing He willed them to do when He could just as easily have done otherwise...exactly like the alleged "hypers" like B57 gleefully AND CORRECTLY admit.

But all of this is mere speculation drawn only for the sake of argument from Calvinism's blasphemously false assumption about God. So instead let's deal with fact: the Bible is clear that God does not lie. Since He judges and condemns unbelief, then both belief and unbelief of the Gospel are within the free will power of choice He has given every human being; hence the justified condemnation for rejecting it.

But if that ability doesn't actually exist within us, then He is lying when He pleads with people to be reconciled to Him and He is lying when He condemns anyone on the basis of unbelief.

There is no way around that conclusion and you know it.
 
intojoy

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ttruscott said:
GOD is love and love is patient and never harms...HE will never give up on anyone. If someone is not saved, they CANNOT be saved!!! HE will never give up on anyone who can be saved.

To believe HE created us sinners in Adam is to believe HE created some for hell - no matter how many pages of theo-babble are written to double think one's way past this truth.
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You have based your conclusion upon your question to which you answer yourself and not any scriptures that support your answer.

Here, you claim that God cannot be fair if He elects to save without electing to damn right? That's your preconceived doctrinal assumption based on human evaluation in human emotions. Scripture clearly says God cannot sin nor does He create sin. According to your logic man was created to sin.

Again, your rejection of the doctrine of God's elect is based in your emotional question answered by yourself. For that reason the scriptures are not the final authority for you, your intellect is your final authority. Mine is the Word of God and it speaks about election and the "middle view" is the biblical view concerning election.

God allowed for the fall. That condemned every man even before they breathed. God then rendered all men savable. God elected for Himself those who come to faith. This is all scriptural and not based upon a human question or human reasoning.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Dialogos said:
I'm fine only expecting you to answer a single question at a time.

Here it is:

How do you explain the disharmony between your assertion that we are condemned to die (future tense) for our sins and Paul's assertion that we were all dead in our sins in which we once walked?
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Thank you....it took some wading to get to the question. I have to say I was tempted to try and respond a bit here and there, which never seems to work for me. So I appreciate your patience. ;)

When Paul says we were all dead in our sins, he is not saying we were comatose and unable to respond, or weren't rational thinking human beings. You are reading more into that statement than is actually there. What Paul is saying is that we were enemies of God, condemned to die (for the wages of sin is death), and destined to face God's wrath at the Judgment. We know this because Paul goes to some serious lengths to explain about faith, and hearing and believing the Gospel. If we were dead zombies, Paul would not have said this...

Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

Or this....
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.​

You cite Paul and then quite conveniently ignore all of what Paul says (except the "dead" in sins part). :think:
 
intojoy

intojoy

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Factoid:
A Very small number of people have been saved from the mass of humanity. 99% of all humans to date have died unsaved.
 
intojoy

intojoy

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glorydaz said:
Thank you....it took some wading to get to the question. I have to say I was tempted to try and respond a bit here and there, which never seems to work for me. So I appreciate your patience. ;)

When Paul says we were all dead in our sins, he is not saying we were comatose and unable to respond, or weren't rational thinking human beings. You are reading more into that statement than is actually there. What Paul is saying is that we were enemies of God, condemned to die (for the wages of sin is death), and destined to face God's wrath at the Judgment. We know this because Paul goes to some serious lengths to explain about faith, and hearing and believing the Gospel. If we were dead zombies, Paul would not have said this...

Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

Or this....
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.​

You cite Paul and then quite conveniently ignore all of what Paul says (except the "dead" in sins part). :think:
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So God owes you since you believe. Got it.
 
Dialogos

Dialogos

Well-known member
glorydaz said:
When Paul says we were all dead in our sins, he is not saying we were comatose and unable to respond, or weren't rational thinking human beings. You are reading more into that statement than is actually there.
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Unable to respond in what capacity is the real question, isn't it.
There have more people than can be counted who were "rational thinking human beings" that nevertheless turned away from the offer of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Why?

"following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- (Eph 2:2 ESV)"

Have you ever noticed this?

The spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience is who we all followed when we were dead in trespasses and sins.

If the spirit of father of lies is at work in someone, wouldn't that make them less responsive to God than a "neutral party" might be?
 
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