ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"
- Thread starter AVmetro
- Start date
AVmetro, it's evident that Jesus used Gehenna as symbolism. Note also:
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Here we got carcases, not immortal "souls" with worms in them. In like manner:
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD’S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
So Edom shall burn forever, yet the owl and the raven shall dwell in it and thorns shall come up in Edom's palaces. Strange thorns if this is literal. Btw, do you know of such a place? Where the fire burns eternally?
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Here we got carcases, not immortal "souls" with worms in them. In like manner:
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD’S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
So Edom shall burn forever, yet the owl and the raven shall dwell in it and thorns shall come up in Edom's palaces. Strange thorns if this is literal. Btw, do you know of such a place? Where the fire burns eternally?
C
cirisme
Guest
Please do.
o2bwise
New member
For Cirisme
For Cirisme
Hi cirisme,
OK, I’m looking at Page 16.
In the first post, you make mention of the text in Revelation that says death is destroyed.
Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation is so symbolic that I am not sure, but I think it is very possible that Verse 15 is a repetition of the thought of Verse 14. In other words, once the lost were placed in the lake of fire, the result would be that death would be no more. Look what it says, “anyone not found in the Book of LIFE…”
In other words, there is no longer anyone around who will ever be subject to death. Thus, it can be said that casting anyone not found in the Book of Life into the fire (thus causing their death) is the same thing as casting death in the lake of fire for death will be no more. For the simple reason that everyone else that is around has life for eternity.
In your second post on Page 16, you wrote:
snip
The reason I do not think it means never-ending time is because I do not believe there will be any master-slave relationships in heaven and thus the passage must be referring to earthly life.
What I derive from this, then, is that aion can rightly be used to portray finite time periods. Your assertion about owlam does not take away from the fact that aion can refer to temporary time periods. The meaning of aion is not dependent on the meaning of owlam. In other words, if some Greek person says something with aion in it, he doesn’t need to be asked, had he spoken in Hebrew, if he would have used owlam. He need not even know Hebrew.
Do you get this point I am trying to make?
In that same reply, you move onto Revelation 20:10:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
cirisme, why would the reasoning be circular if aion was finite time? I see nothing circular about it. If being placed in the lake of fire caused eventual termination of any life, what then becomes circular about it?
When you say, “The only reason we should believe any passage with 'owlam or aion means something finite is with both conditions A and B. And that requires CONTEXT,” I don’t understand any power in that statement.
If Satan and his angels and people are not innately immortal, context simply means being compatible with that fact and allowing aion to be finite. If they are innately immortal, aion must be compatible with that fact and allow infinite time.
How does the context of the passage demand infinite time? How does it not allow finite time?
In your next post, you wrote:
I addressed this above.
You also wrote:
The fact that the gift of salvation is LIFE itself (albeit it is also characterized as having like abundantly). The fact that only God is immortal. The fact that justice was met at the cross and the time period was finite. The fact that Sodom is a TYPE (example) of what befalls the lost and that time period was finite. The fact that Satan and his angels will be ashes under our feet. The fact that some are described as “being no more.”
But, cirisme…you’re asking me for a compelling reason cuts equally in your direction.
Can you supply me with a compelling reason that the time period must be infinite?
In a later post, you wrote:
This is the same as asking for a kind of compelling reason in a form that you seem to require. This cuts equally in your direction as well. Can you cite a text where someone says The lost will LIVE in torment for ever?”
To be consistent, I would need the word LIVE in the sentence.
In a later post, you state that aionios MUST mean eternal. I replied to that. Aionios is the adjective form of the exact same word (AION) which is the adverb form. One is used to describe a noun (fire), the other to describe a verb (tormented). Aionios must carry the same definition as aion.
And we are given more evidence that aionios, in the passage, is describing finite time for the sufferers. Why? Because Sodom is set forth as an EXAMPLE.
God Bless,
Tony (o2)
For Cirisme
Hi cirisme,
OK, I’m looking at Page 16.
In the first post, you make mention of the text in Revelation that says death is destroyed.
Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation is so symbolic that I am not sure, but I think it is very possible that Verse 15 is a repetition of the thought of Verse 14. In other words, once the lost were placed in the lake of fire, the result would be that death would be no more. Look what it says, “anyone not found in the Book of LIFE…”
In other words, there is no longer anyone around who will ever be subject to death. Thus, it can be said that casting anyone not found in the Book of Life into the fire (thus causing their death) is the same thing as casting death in the lake of fire for death will be no more. For the simple reason that everyone else that is around has life for eternity.
In your second post on Page 16, you wrote:
snip
The reason I do not think it means never-ending time is because I do not believe there will be any master-slave relationships in heaven and thus the passage must be referring to earthly life.
What I derive from this, then, is that aion can rightly be used to portray finite time periods. Your assertion about owlam does not take away from the fact that aion can refer to temporary time periods. The meaning of aion is not dependent on the meaning of owlam. In other words, if some Greek person says something with aion in it, he doesn’t need to be asked, had he spoken in Hebrew, if he would have used owlam. He need not even know Hebrew.
Do you get this point I am trying to make?
In that same reply, you move onto Revelation 20:10:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
cirisme, why would the reasoning be circular if aion was finite time? I see nothing circular about it. If being placed in the lake of fire caused eventual termination of any life, what then becomes circular about it?
When you say, “The only reason we should believe any passage with 'owlam or aion means something finite is with both conditions A and B. And that requires CONTEXT,” I don’t understand any power in that statement.
If Satan and his angels and people are not innately immortal, context simply means being compatible with that fact and allowing aion to be finite. If they are innately immortal, aion must be compatible with that fact and allow infinite time.
How does the context of the passage demand infinite time? How does it not allow finite time?
In your next post, you wrote:
I addressed this above.
You also wrote:
The fact that the gift of salvation is LIFE itself (albeit it is also characterized as having like abundantly). The fact that only God is immortal. The fact that justice was met at the cross and the time period was finite. The fact that Sodom is a TYPE (example) of what befalls the lost and that time period was finite. The fact that Satan and his angels will be ashes under our feet. The fact that some are described as “being no more.”
But, cirisme…you’re asking me for a compelling reason cuts equally in your direction.
Can you supply me with a compelling reason that the time period must be infinite?
In a later post, you wrote:
This is the same as asking for a kind of compelling reason in a form that you seem to require. This cuts equally in your direction as well. Can you cite a text where someone says The lost will LIVE in torment for ever?”
To be consistent, I would need the word LIVE in the sentence.
In a later post, you state that aionios MUST mean eternal. I replied to that. Aionios is the adjective form of the exact same word (AION) which is the adverb form. One is used to describe a noun (fire), the other to describe a verb (tormented). Aionios must carry the same definition as aion.
And we are given more evidence that aionios, in the passage, is describing finite time for the sufferers. Why? Because Sodom is set forth as an EXAMPLE.
God Bless,
Tony (o2)
Last edited:
C
cirisme
Guest
o2...
o2...
Jesus detested repetitive things.
You know why? Because it is a form of (mostly) far-east mind control. It's pagan. No why would something
He hates so much(something pagan) be in His book?
For the most part, I think you've got it. :up: Death can be no more after the lake of fire. Of course, there is one
problem with your logic:
But death has already been destroyed!
Death is destroyed(seperated), and then people are thrown in!
Moving on...
So you would agree that this "forever" means until one party is unable to fulfill their obligations?(in other words
death)
Yes, but I don't see why it is relevant.
Because you yourself said that aion didn't have power of itself to determine whether the timeframe is temporary
or eternal.
Of course you don't.
You say that the master/slave verse does not refer an eternal time frame because of death. You say that
Revelation 20 does not refer to eternal time frame because of aion. It doesn't fit.
Very simple. You told me somewhere that aion cannot mean eternal temporary on it's own merit. So, that
means that we have to evaluate surrounding texts in order to determine whether the context means something
eternal or temporary.
HUH??
Context, sweetie, context! The following verses have the exact same context as Revelation 20:15, and use
the word aion.
[quoe]Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys
of hell and of death.
Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever
and ever,
Re 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for
ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the
sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth
upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth
for ever and ever.
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and
the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time
no longer:
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who
liveth for ever and ever.
[/quote]
Care to explain how long God and/or Jesus lives? The exact same duration that people will spend in hell!
What is life?
What is death/persih/destruction/etc?
Seperation from life itself, Jesus Christ!
Scripture?
Justice? This has nothing to do with justice! What you are proposing is similar to the parable of the prodigal
son. What you want is the father to shoot the son as he leaves. That's not justice!
So after they were seperated from the most beautiful thing in the universe, GOD!, they went out to lunch
together?!? This is silly nonsense...
I addressed both of these scriptures with agape. I would appreciate a response to it.
Just did.
How many times do I have to say it, I do not believe in a hell where people are tortured!
So, you claim that the punishment is finite. What, pray tell, is the punishment? Seperation from God! That
is eternal! If it wasn't, it wouldn't be punishment!
Before I let you go, let's go back to this little gem:
What, then, is Hades doing in the mix?!
o2...
Jesus detested repetitive things.
You know why? Because it is a form of (mostly) far-east mind control. It's pagan. No why would something
He hates so much(something pagan) be in His book?
For the most part, I think you've got it. :up: Death can be no more after the lake of fire. Of course, there is one
problem with your logic:
But death has already been destroyed!
Death is destroyed(seperated), and then people are thrown in!
Moving on...
So you would agree that this "forever" means until one party is unable to fulfill their obligations?(in other words
death
)Yes, but I don't see why it is relevant.
Because you yourself said that aion didn't have power of itself to determine whether the timeframe is temporary
or eternal.
Of course you don't.
You say that the master/slave verse does not refer an eternal time frame because of death. You say that
Revelation 20 does not refer to eternal time frame because of aion. It doesn't fit.
Very simple. You told me somewhere that aion cannot mean eternal temporary on it's own merit. So, that
means that we have to evaluate surrounding texts in order to determine whether the context means something
eternal or temporary.
HUH??
Context, sweetie, context! The following verses have the exact same context as Revelation 20:15, and use
the word aion.
[quoe]Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys
of hell and of death.
Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever
and ever,
Re 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for
ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the
sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth
upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth
for ever and ever.
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and
the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time
no longer:
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who
liveth for ever and ever.
[/quote]
Care to explain how long God and/or Jesus lives? The exact same duration that people will spend in hell!
What is life?
What is death/persih/destruction/etc?
Seperation from life itself, Jesus Christ!
Scripture?
Justice? This has nothing to do with justice! What you are proposing is similar to the parable of the prodigal
son. What you want is the father to shoot the son as he leaves. That's not justice!
So after they were seperated from the most beautiful thing in the universe, GOD!, they went out to lunch
together?!? This is silly nonsense...
I addressed both of these scriptures with agape. I would appreciate a response to it.
Just did.
How many times do I have to say it, I do not believe in a hell where people are tortured!
So, you claim that the punishment is finite. What, pray tell, is the punishment? Seperation from God! That
is eternal! If it wasn't, it wouldn't be punishment!
Before I let you go, let's go back to this little gem:
What, then, is Hades doing in the mix?!
o2bwise
New member
Huh?!!
Huh?!!
cirisme,
I haven't had a chance to read this forum, but I glanced your post and read:
followed by your application of that principle.
Do you REALLY consider that "argument" to be viable? Repeating prayers ad infinitum and having the Bible say the same thing two different ways, in succession, hardly qualifies as the same thing.
It is hard for me NOT to believe that your bias is extreme.
To actually assert that this is support is beyond me to a scale that is stratospheric.
Oh well...
Tony (o2)
Huh?!!
cirisme,
I haven't had a chance to read this forum, but I glanced your post and read:
followed by your application of that principle.
Do you REALLY consider that "argument" to be viable? Repeating prayers ad infinitum and having the Bible say the same thing two different ways, in succession, hardly qualifies as the same thing.
It is hard for me NOT to believe that your bias is extreme.
To actually assert that this is support is beyond me to a scale that is stratospheric.
Oh well...
Tony (o2)
C
cirisme
Guest
No, I was merely pointing out that Jesus hated repetitive things. My real arguement against it was that Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. If read the rest of my post, you'll understand that. Care to address the rest?
o2bwise
New member
The Bias Seems So Extreme
The Bias Seems So Extreme
Cirisme,
I am so much less enthusiastic about participating with you simply because I believe your biases are incredibly extreme.
The passage said that Jesus hates VAIN repetitions.
Man looks on the outward act, God looks on the heart.
Man sees the external, the repetition. God sees the VANITY. He sees the THING in the heart from whence the repetition sprang forth.
Here's a hypothetical:
Suppose a Christian really blew it. Committed a pretty dreadful sin. Suppose he is distraught over it and in passionate tears pours his heart out to God:
God, I'm sorry! I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry!
ARE YOU GOING TO SIT HERE AND TELL ME THAT GOD HATES THAT?
Take Care,
Tony (o2)
The Bias Seems So Extreme
Cirisme,
I am so much less enthusiastic about participating with you simply because I believe your biases are incredibly extreme.
The passage said that Jesus hates VAIN repetitions.
Man looks on the outward act, God looks on the heart.
Man sees the external, the repetition. God sees the VANITY. He sees the THING in the heart from whence the repetition sprang forth.
Here's a hypothetical:
Suppose a Christian really blew it. Committed a pretty dreadful sin. Suppose he is distraught over it and in passionate tears pours his heart out to God:
God, I'm sorry! I'm so sorry! I'm so sorry!
ARE YOU GOING TO SIT HERE AND TELL ME THAT GOD HATES THAT?
Take Care,
Tony (o2)
C
cirisme
Guest
sigh...
sigh...
Cirisme said,
Why do you continue to ignore the rest of my post?
sigh...
Cirisme said,
Why do you continue to ignore the rest of my post?
o2bwise
New member
This Really Stinks
This Really Stinks
cirisme,
What IS wrong with you, man?
Search the entire site and see HOW MANY posts I have made. Yours was the last one and may have been the ONLY one.
I have a migraine and work was intense.
Furthermore, I TOLD you WHY my enthusiasm has gone down.
I discern you to be biased beyond the ability to see the truth even if it hit you on the forehead like a 2x4.
The basis of my assertion is your inclusion of repetition which I felt I replied to with a high degree of persuasion. And you didn't even address that part I responded to.
Look, if you resort to your repetition argument as partial support, I just believe you are so biased that dialogue is quite possibly a complete waste of time.
I am actually astonished that you could have even thought to use that as some "support" for your position. I can only discern one explanation.
You are biased to a staggering degree.
This Really Stinks
cirisme,
What IS wrong with you, man?
Search the entire site and see HOW MANY posts I have made. Yours was the last one and may have been the ONLY one.
I have a migraine and work was intense.
Furthermore, I TOLD you WHY my enthusiasm has gone down.
I discern you to be biased beyond the ability to see the truth even if it hit you on the forehead like a 2x4.
The basis of my assertion is your inclusion of repetition which I felt I replied to with a high degree of persuasion. And you didn't even address that part I responded to.
Look, if you resort to your repetition argument as partial support, I just believe you are so biased that dialogue is quite possibly a complete waste of time.
I am actually astonished that you could have even thought to use that as some "support" for your position. I can only discern one explanation.
You are biased to a staggering degree.
C
cirisme
Guest
I have responded in a manner which I believe to be adequate to everything you, AV, Agape, Evangelion, Anastasis, Dude-eronomy, Admiral_d, and anyone else that has participated in this discussion and yet all the mentioned hasn't shown me where I'm wrong.
I could only be so lucky, I've had something worse throughout my discussion with you.
My patience is wearing thin. I've continually posted responses to everything you've said, and you act as though they don't exist.
And you didn't even address that part I responded to?!?! Guess, what, I AGREE! Now, care to address the rest my post!?
If you continually ignore everything I say and pretend you're so awesome, any discussion with you is impossible. I'm astonished you would throw mud packs like this and make mountains out of molehills. There's only one explanation for it:
You are biased to a staggering degree.
Now, if it offends you so much, I won't even mention it ever again. Now adrress the rest:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In other words, there is no longer anyone around who will ever be subject to death. Thus, it can be said
that casting anyone not found in the Book of Life into the fire (thus causing their death) is the same thing as
casting death in the lake of fire for death will be no more. For the simple reason that everyone else that is around
has life for eternity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the most part, I think you've got it. Death can be no more after the lake of fire. Of course, there is one
problem with your logic:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thus, it can be said that casting anyone not found in the Book of Life into the fire (thus causing their
death)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But death has already been destroyed!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was
not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.-Rev 20:14-15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Death is destroyed(seperated), and then people are thrown in!
Moving on...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reason I do not think it means never-ending time is because I do not believe there will be any
master-slave relationships in heaven and thus the passage must be referring to earthly life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you would agree that this "forever" means until one party is unable to fulfill their obligations?(in other words
death )
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I derive from this, then, is that aion can rightly be used to portray finite time periods. Your assertion
about owlam does not take away from the fact that aion can refer to temporary time periods. The meaning of
aion is not dependent on the meaning of owlam. In other words, if some Greek person says something with aion
in it, he doesn’t need to be asked, had he spoken in Hebrew, if he would have used owlam. He need not even
know Hebrew.
Do you get this point I am trying to make?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, but I don't see why it is relevant.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cirisme, why would the reasoning be circular if aion was finite time?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you yourself said that aion didn't have power of itself to determine whether the timeframe is temporary
or eternal.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see nothing circular about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course you don't.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If being placed in the lake of fire caused eventual termination of any life, what then becomes circular
about it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You say that the master/slave verse does not refer an eternal time frame because of death. You say that
Revelation 20 does not refer to eternal time frame because of aion. It doesn't fit.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you say, “The only reason we should believe any passage with 'owlam or aion means something
finite is with both conditions A and B. And that requires CONTEXT,” I don’t understand any power in that
statement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very simple. You told me somewhere that aion cannot mean eternal temporary on it's own merit. So, that
means that we have to evaluate surrounding texts in order to determine whether the context means something
eternal or temporary.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Satan and his angels and people are not innately immortal, context simply means being compatible with
that fact and allowing aion to be finite. If they are innately immortal, aion must be compatible with that fact and
allow infinite time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HUH??
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How does the context of the passage demand infinite time? How does it not allow finite time?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Context, sweetie, context! The following verses have the exact same context as Revelation 20:15, and use
the word aion.
[quoe]Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys
of hell and of death.
Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever
and ever,
Re 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for
ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the
sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth
upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth
for ever and ever.
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and
the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time
no longer:
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who
liveth for ever and ever.
[/quote]
Care to explain how long God and/or Jesus lives? The exact same duration that people will spend in hell!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that the gift of salvation is LIFE itself (albeit it is also characterized as having like
abundantly).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is life?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me
-John 14:6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is death/persih/destruction/etc?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ince it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to give relief to you that are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his
mighty angels in flaming fire,
2Th 1:8 giving vengeance to those who don't know God, and to those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord
Jesus,
2Th 1:9 who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his
might,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seperation from life itself, Jesus Christ!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that only God is immortal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scripture?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that justice was met at the cross and the time period was finite.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Justice? This has nothing to do with justice! What you are proposing is similar to the parable of the prodigal
son. What you want is the father to shoot the son as he leaves. That's not justice!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that Sodom is a TYPE (example) of what befalls the lost and that time period was finite.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So after they were seperated from the most beautiful thing in the universe, GOD!, they went out to lunch
together?!? This is silly nonsense...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that Satan and his angels will be ashes under our feet. The fact that some are described as
“being no more.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I addressed both of these scriptures with agape. I would appreciate a response to it.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you supply me with a compelling reason that the time period must be infinite?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just did.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the same as asking for a kind of compelling reason in a form that you seem to require. This cuts
equally in your direction as well. Can you cite a text where someone says The lost will LIVE in torment for
ever?”
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How many times do I have to say it, I do not believe in a hell where people are tortured!
quote:
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And we are given more evidence that aionios, in the passage, is describing finite time for the sufferers.
Why? Because Sodom is set forth as an EXAMPLE.
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So, you claim that the punishment is finite. What, pray tell, is the punishment? Seperation from God! That
is eternal! If it wasn't, it wouldn't be punishment!
Before I let you go, let's go back to this little gem:
quote:
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In other words, once the lost were placed in the lake of fire, the result would be that death would be no
more.
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What, then, is Hades doing in the mix?!
quote:
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Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.-Revelation 20:14
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o2bwise
New member
Where I Sit With This Topic
Where I Sit With This Topic
Hi cirisme,
I am truly sorry, however, I feel as though you have not responded to the point I was making. You seem to express dissatsfaction because you don't get a reply. Now, I explain myself and you don't extend the simple courtesy to say, "I'm sorry my expectations were unfair."
Now, if your point is: "Well, I'm more used up than you are and I'm posting!" That's not good enough. That's great if it works for you, but it doesn't work for me. If I am extremely busy at work and if I'm not feeling well, I'm not likely to be active here.
And if you're gonna take shots at me, without any consideration for what's going on, I am not attracted to talking to you.
Do you understand?
Now, back to the discussion.
Can you understand my point about your post on repetitions?
Can you understand how I might see it that for anyone to so quickly make a post like that, that his mind is very likely made up?
Do you understand that?
I am not sure I understand your present posture regarding repetition. Do you still insist that your post on it has any merit whatsoever?
If you presently believe it was flawed, do you believe:
cirisme's repetition argument was completely without merit. It added NOTHING to his defense in his position as to what hell is.
I don't think I am being unfair in having lost A LOT of enthusiasm for discussing this because:
1. When I don't reply for a while, you bring up inappropriate posts such as Why do you continue to ignore the rest of my post?
2. I do not understand how anyone can bring up such a flawed argument as your "vain repetitions argument" unless his mind is absolutely made up. I truly do not. I do not understand how anyone can resort to such an argument unless his bias is vast.
Do you understand?
God Bless,
Tony (o2)
Where I Sit With This Topic
Hi cirisme,
I am truly sorry, however, I feel as though you have not responded to the point I was making. You seem to express dissatsfaction because you don't get a reply. Now, I explain myself and you don't extend the simple courtesy to say, "I'm sorry my expectations were unfair."
Now, if your point is: "Well, I'm more used up than you are and I'm posting!" That's not good enough. That's great if it works for you, but it doesn't work for me. If I am extremely busy at work and if I'm not feeling well, I'm not likely to be active here.
And if you're gonna take shots at me, without any consideration for what's going on, I am not attracted to talking to you.
Do you understand?
Now, back to the discussion.
Can you understand my point about your post on repetitions?
Can you understand how I might see it that for anyone to so quickly make a post like that, that his mind is very likely made up?
Do you understand that?
I am not sure I understand your present posture regarding repetition. Do you still insist that your post on it has any merit whatsoever?
If you presently believe it was flawed, do you believe:
cirisme's repetition argument was completely without merit. It added NOTHING to his defense in his position as to what hell is.
I don't think I am being unfair in having lost A LOT of enthusiasm for discussing this because:
1. When I don't reply for a while, you bring up inappropriate posts such as Why do you continue to ignore the rest of my post?
2. I do not understand how anyone can bring up such a flawed argument as your "vain repetitions argument" unless his mind is absolutely made up. I truly do not. I do not understand how anyone can resort to such an argument unless his bias is vast.
Do you understand?
God Bless,
Tony (o2)
C
cirisme
Guest
Me too.
Where am I taking "shots" at you?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
You act as though that's the only thing I say in regards to it! It most certainly is not:
Actually, you have made numerous posts since I posted this and have ignored everything but one or two lines.
My mind is made up. Nothing you can say or do will change m mind. Nothing but Biblical truth. A year ago I believed whole heartily that hell was a place of actual fire and torture. From that perspective then, I would never have changed my mind. Never. A few months later, I was reading a book on the pro-cons of hell, I saw Biblical evidence that was very clear hell was not a place of torture. So, in the face of actual Biblical fact, I changed my mind. Present Biblical truth, and I gurantee you that I will change my mind. It's very, very simple: you can argue with man, you can't argue with God.
In Christ,
-AJ