ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"

[AVmetro]

A good subject to debate is the reality of a conscious eternal place of punishment for the wicked. That place being, of course, 'The lake of fire', a place which Jesus used Gehenna as an analogy for.
I've noticed many to think of 'Hell' in Dante-esque terms which is very false. I've also noticed many believe 'hell' to not exist. False as well.

Anyone want to jump in,(this forum, not hell ) go ahead, but first explain your position on the biblical explanation of 'hell' as we don't want to argue in circles only to find that we agree/disagree on the same points.

 

[2002 Christian]

Jesus still isn't suffering from His death upon the cross, is He?

"Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens." Is that fire still burning them? "They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." "...burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly."

 

[AVmetro]

>>>Jesus still isn't suffering from His death upon the cross, is He? <<<

No, His resurrection unleashed Him from the imprisionment of death and punishment. All who are not IN Christ, however, is a different story. They are outside of that resurrection and will remain behind in "death".

A question one needs to ask - 'Does the death of a man, aquit him from his own sins?

 

[cirisme]

This was well covered in this thread. Especially so at about the 3rd page and on, but I guess that's when I came in on the discussion.

 

[o2bwise]

Brief Summary

Brief Summary

The fire that cannot be put out is God's love (Song of Solomon 8:6-7). It is the righteous who dwell in the everlasting burnings.

God's presence is a purifying fire for those who receive it (progressively) by faith. It is a consuming fire for the lost.

The idea of eternal conscious torment is satanic in character. It has NOTHING to do with God (who is love).

Tony

 

[geralduk]

HEAVEN would be hell for a sinner.

But be that as it may the story of the rich man and the pauper is worth agood look at.
as the \Lord said "there WAS a man"
Not like unto...
The weeping is for sorrow
The wailing is despair
The grinding of teath is HATRED AND FRUSTRATION

 

[Melody]

Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1Ti 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[AVmetro]

There are some good points thus far. However I have to disagree with you O2bwise, on this...

>>>The idea of eternal conscious torment is satanic in character. It has NOTHING to do with God (who is love). <<<

Actually "Hell" is a necessity in accordance with God's nature. In no way does 'Hell' take away the aspect of God's eternal love.

I have an extremely short doctrine of 'Hell' mapped out in a NWT bible that I will have to find. When I get it I will share some reasons as to why 'hell' must exist.

God bless...

 

[o2bwise]

I'm Curious...

I'm Curious...

Hi AV,

I'll be interested in noting how eventual anihilation (ceasing to exist) cannot possibly be considered more "just" than the endless perpetuation of sin, sinners, and pain.

I am also curious how Christ satisfied justice during a time period that was finite while it is just for the lost to spend eternity in conscious torment.

Take Care...

Tony (o2)

 

[cirisme]

o2bwise, I see that you're arguing just to be arguing again. Doesn't that get old?

 

[admiral_d]

What is hell?

We pretty much agree that it is a place where "bad" people burn....The question is -do beings burn forever and ever continually, or is there a time when they just burn up and cease to exist....

We try to coax these arguement in the nature of God and in His Justice..Some say that it is God's nature to burn these people forever and it is within His justice system...

My question is that this tends to reflect upon the Character of God. If God will draw all men to Jesus due to His love, then how does this draw people to God? I can only conclude that it is from fear and I question that this is a good motive to draw people to God. Beside this, James says that there is not a shadow , or variance in God...IOWs, God is costant. There is no change in Him. If what IJohn 4 says about God and Love is true, then God truely is love in His behavior, seeking the best for all...

But now we have this connundrum...Eternal torturing with a Loving God or Annihilation with a Loving God...

In the final battle found in Revelation 20:10-11, it talks about a lake of fire and brimstone and the devil is thrown into it...It also says that ..." There was no place found for them"....If there is no place found for this eternal hell, then truely, hell is a short lived place, ...a place where annihilation occurs..

CS Lewis, in his trilogy, shows that evil doesn't kill...it maims...it delights in torture, and pain and suffering...If God is a god of torture, then He is evil....

It would be better for those who choose not Love and God to cease to exist than to continue in thier torment forever....

Just my opinion...

 

[o2bwise]

Ought Not Presume

Ought Not Presume

Hi cirisme,

o2bwise, I see that you're arguing just to be arguing again. Doesn't that get old?

Are you presuming? Or did you get a vision, or something?

Personally, I think your assertion that you explained God's justice (in the other thread) was erroneous. I don't think it proved much of anything at all. In saying this (and realizing YOU believe it was proof), I am content that you may think I am "reasoning-impaired." I think the same of you.

That's cool.

However, it is underhanded of you to assign MOTIVE because you don't know it in the first place.

It is far worse to speak of God as purposing eternal conscious torment for the lost than it is to accuse me of putting cigarette burns in my daughters for being naughty.

Infinitely worse.

I am sure you can come up with better motives than you assert.

Such as: I have God's character to defend as I believe it is being demonized.

Tony (o2)

 

[cirisme]

However, it is underhanded of you to assign MOTIVE because you don't know it in the first place.

Perhaps I assumed motive because you didn't reply. I asked you to show me where I was wrong in my posts. You haven't. I asked you not to reply if you just ignore my posts, I am glad that you haven't replied because you still have the same basic arguement.

It is far worse to speak of God as purposing eternal conscious torment for the lost than it is to accuse me of putting cigarette burns in my daughters for being naughty.

I've already covered it several times in the previous thread. I have already explained that away, but you have been unable to challenge my arguements, so you continue with your old ones. If that's not arguing just to argue, I guess it's ego.

 

[AVmetro]

Hey everybody!

Hey everybody!

I still have to get hold of that NWT for the doctrine.

As of now though, I am going to clear up a misconception:

GOD DOES NOT TORTURE PEOPLE IN HELL.

People walk to hell of their own accord. God offers salvation from hell for free.

As C.S. Lewis put it somewhat " the door to hell is locked from the inside....'

 

[Eireann]

Originally posted by admiral_d
What is hell?

We pretty much agree that it is a place where "bad" people burn....The question is -do beings burn forever and ever continually, or is there a time when they just burn up and cease to exist....

The idea that hell is a place of burning is, as AVMetro pointed out, very Dante-esque. And the idea that it is a place of eternal torture and torment is very Milton-esque. The Christian idea of hell is built, I think, primarily on four models -- Dante, Milton, the Jewish sheol, and the Greek realm of Hades. The only one of these that purports hell to be a "lake of fire" is Dante, who probably literalized an otherwise symbolic biblicalism of hell. Hades contains, among others, the river Phlegathon, which is a river of fire, which probably also contributes somewhat to that idea.

I don't pretend to know if there is such a place or not, or what its nature may be. Is it a place of physical torture, mental torment, or spiritual aloneness? Is it a place that exists in the mind of the soul (if the soul has a mind) or in reality? I don't know.

Just a curiosity -- since most of Christianity's other-cultural borrowings are from Greek and Middle Eastern influences, then how did the use of the word "hell" for one of its afterlives come about, since hell is named after a NORSE goddess of the underworld?

 

[o2bwise]

Ain't Got The Foggiest!

Ain't Got The Foggiest!

cirisme,

In the other thread, I haven't a clue as to your argument in support.

So, I don't even know how to address it.

Tell ya what...consider doing like Philosophy 101.

Like this:

Premise a
Premise b
Premise c
THEREFORE (conclusion)

Maybe that would help me.

I'd relax on the assigning motive part, especially as I told you what I believe my motive is.

Take Care, Bud...

Tony

 

[cirisme]

I've done essentially this before, but I'll do it in the fewest words possible.

A. We can either be with God or without.
B. Our actions determine A. We do something he asked us not to, we get seperated from Him.
C. If B makes A without God, and our life ends; we live forever with out Him in hell.
D. If we don't die without Him(ie with Christ), we spend forever with Him in heaven.

THEREFORE,
E. Heaven is about total closeness with God.
F. Hell is total seperation from God.
G. If we die seperated from God, we goto hell.
H. If we die with God, we goto heaven.

FUTHERMORE,
I. Because of Adam H is impossible. So all will G.
J. God didn't like G, so He sent His Son to fix it.
K. If we accept His free gift, we will H.

My entire arguement is in A-D. E-H is the conclusion based on A-D and I-K is how it gets fixed.

Simple, no?

 

[AVmetro]

o2bwise

o2bwise

>>>I'll be interested in noting how eventual anihilation (ceasing to exist) cannot possibly be considered more "just" than the endless perpetuation of sin, sinners, and pain. <<<

I believe I read someone say before:
In order to satisfy justice, there must be punishment. In order for there to be punishment there must be suffering. In order to have suffering one must be concious.

Here is how it is:
A man is not aquitted for his sins by his death. Otherwise we would not be punished for the sin of Adam. Also read: "...punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,....Ex20:4
A man's death does not aquit him of the sin. God remembers that sin for eternity. There is only one way in order to atone for sin as it is written: "..because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Heb10:3 Therefore that atonement is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
Read: "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just." Deut32:4
"God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in ordere that the righteous REQUIRMENTS of the law might be fully MET in us,...." Rom8:3-4
God's nature of justice demands a requirment to be paid for sin. If Jesus, the only atonement, is not accepted, then the sin eternally remains and must be eternally punished. Punishment which one must be concious of in order to classify it as punishment.

I have a lot more on this if I could only find that darn NWT....

 

[o2bwise]

Nope!

Nope!

Sorry cirisme,

I see in your post NO justification for eternal conscious torment. I see that you believe that SINCE God provided man with a choice to NOT choose hell and since some freely choose hell, eternal conscious torment is just.

I simply do not see that, one iota.

Reasoning disconnect, I suppose.

Oh Well...

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

 

[o2bwise]

Two Fundamental Sources of Disagreement

Two Fundamental Sources of Disagreement

Hi AV,

There are two exceedingly fundamental points of disagreement.

God's nature of justice demands a requirment to be paid for sin.

I do not see this in the way you do. I see the penalty for sin as emanating FROM sin and not FROM God. It is like the symptoms innate to (say) a disease than it is the effect of the electric chair.

Sin condemns because of what sin is and not because of who God is.

If Jesus, the only atonement, is not accepted, then the sin eternally remains and must be eternally punished. Punishment which one must be concious of in order to classify it as punishment.

Regardless, you mention sin ETERNALLY REMAINING. That is interesting. It's like a vicious circle. Sin resides in one place, in the consciousness of sinners. The only way sin can eternally remain is if the sinner lives eternally. If the sinner were to cease to exist, the sin would cease to exist as well.

As an example, if a man were a murderer, should that man no longer exist, the evil that is his would no longer exist either.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)