Evangelion
New member
Uggah, uggah! 
ARCHIVE: The reality of "Hell"
- Thread starter AVmetro
- Start date
o2bwise
New member
No...and No
No...and No
Hi cirisme,
-and-
No.
And no.
The reason I decline is two-fold.
One, you have refused to volunteer two verses that you feel support your position. I am willing to labor, but not where he who I am participating with is so unwilling.
Two, the place wherein things are considered NOT to be "wholly inadequate" and that are considered NOT to support the truth (which is the position I hold) and that considers the truth to be "a private interpretation," is your mind.
And it is, presently, implacable and devoid of discernment on the matter.
No sense giving a flashlight to a blind man.
I am not saying you are not a Christian. I am only saying that on this precise matter, you are absolutely deluded and that since this is the locus of the problem, my giving you what you ask for is a complete waste of time.
God Bless You,
Tony
No...and No
Hi cirisme,
-and-
No.
And no.
The reason I decline is two-fold.
One, you have refused to volunteer two verses that you feel support your position. I am willing to labor, but not where he who I am participating with is so unwilling.
Two, the place wherein things are considered NOT to be "wholly inadequate" and that are considered NOT to support the truth (which is the position I hold) and that considers the truth to be "a private interpretation," is your mind.
And it is, presently, implacable and devoid of discernment on the matter.
No sense giving a flashlight to a blind man.
I am not saying you are not a Christian. I am only saying that on this precise matter, you are absolutely deluded and that since this is the locus of the problem, my giving you what you ask for is a complete waste of time.
God Bless You,
Tony
C
cirisme
Guest
In the last nineteen pages I have given you more than 12 verses. You have not given me a single verse or response.
Guess what: I want to believe that people will be totally destroyed! I honestly and desprately want to believe that, but I have never once found anything that would even slightly indicate such a thing. So, by my convictions of the Bible being without error and private interpretation, I hesitantly accepted a place of eternal suffering as truth. I hate the idea, and don't understand from my human perspective how God could allow it, but both things are irrelevant, the only thing being relevant is what God says.
AV,
I answered your questions.
C
cirisme
Guest
Agape,
In the last 19+ pages, I have given plenty of verses that indicate that people will exist for eternity, if that's not immortality than I don't what your definition is. To date, you haven't given me a single verse that stands up to scrutiny that supports annhilation.
In the last 19+ pages, I have given plenty of verses that indicate that people will exist for eternity, if that's not immortality than I don't what your definition is. To date, you haven't given me a single verse that stands up to scrutiny that supports annhilation.
A hard burden to carry
A hard burden to carry
Cirisme stated:
"Guess what: I want to believe that people will be totally destroyed! I honestly and desprately want to believe that, but I have never once found anything that would even slightly indicate such a thing. So, by my convictions of the Bible being without error and private interpretation, I hesitantly accepted a place of eternal suffering as truth. I hate the idea, and don't understand from my human perspective how God could allow it, but both things are irrelevant, the only thing being relevant is what God says."
------
How couragious.
No seriously. I can't see how the Bible could tell you people will be immortal no matter what. I understand your church tells you that and I understand that it's a major ministring tool for your church. Most fiery believers state that without this place, there would be no reason to believe. Such people place their eternal verdict on themselves.
I think you need to realize that the teaching of the immortal soul is made up. Soul means life and I'm sure you have already seen people getting older and even dying and now you just have to reach the conclusion that people are not immortal. Death reigns and did so from Adam (Gen. 2:17, Rom. 5:14)
Once a person understands the storyline behind Gehenna and the worms, it becomes clear that it's symbolism and any ideas of immortality for the rejected is nothing more but wishful make-believe, and an mandatory element of a very sad version of christianity :down: .
A hard burden to carry
Cirisme stated:
"Guess what: I want to believe that people will be totally destroyed! I honestly and desprately want to believe that, but I have never once found anything that would even slightly indicate such a thing. So, by my convictions of the Bible being without error and private interpretation, I hesitantly accepted a place of eternal suffering as truth. I hate the idea, and don't understand from my human perspective how God could allow it, but both things are irrelevant, the only thing being relevant is what God says."
------
How couragious
.No seriously
. I can't see how the Bible could tell you people will be immortal no matter what. I understand your church tells you that and I understand that it's a major ministring tool for your church. Most fiery believers state that without this place, there would be no reason to believe. Such people place their eternal verdict on themselves. I think you need to realize that the teaching of the immortal soul is made up. Soul means life and I'm sure you have already seen people getting older and even dying and now you just have to reach the conclusion that people are not immortal. Death reigns and did so from Adam (Gen. 2:17, Rom. 5:14)
Once a person understands the storyline behind Gehenna and the worms, it becomes clear that it's symbolism and any ideas of immortality for the rejected is nothing more but wishful make-believe, and an mandatory element of a very sad version of christianity :down: .
Last edited:
Evangelion
New member
Cirisme -
You're confusing pre-resurrection with post-resurrection.
You're confusing pre-resurrection with post-resurrection.
Evangelion
New member
AV -
Perhaps it's because you forgot to stamp your little foot this time. Or maybe it's because we're sick of replacing your dummy.
Perhaps it's because you forgot to stamp your little foot this time. Or maybe it's because we're sick of replacing your dummy.
o2bwise
New member
Edward Fudge
Edward Fudge
Hi cirisme,
The following was written by an evangelical who was brought up believing as you do about the state of the dead. Because it was what he always believed, it was very difficult (at first) for him to realize otherwise. His realization came via his undertaking the subject as a graduate thesis.
From:
http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html
Enjoy!
The Fire That Consumes
The Fire that Consumes exposes as unbiblical the popular tradition which says God will keep the wicked alive forever in unending torment. This exhaustive volume examines every biblical text on the subject and shows that hell involves the everlasting, total destruction of both body and soul. It also traces the development of the traditional view of unending conscious torment, from the early church fathers to the 20th century. An alternate selection of the Evangelical Book Club, this study has been acclaimed by scholars worldwide. Contains forewords by the late Professor F. F. Bruce of Manchester, England (both editions) and the late Dr. John W. Wenham of Oxford (Paternoster edition only).
Order the original edition of this groundbreaking book (504 pages) from www.iUniverse.com. Or order the Paternoster edition (226 pages) from Moyer's Family Bookstore by calling toll-free 1-800-632-6657.
WHAT REVIEWERS SAY ABOUT THE FIRE THAT CONSUMES
COLIN BROWN, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, Calif.: "A very strong case for rethinking the notion of the eternal torment of all the lost."
F. F. BRUCE (Deceased), University of Manchester, England: "While this subject is one on which there is no unanimity among evangelical Christians, it is at the same time one on which they have often engaged in fierce polemic. What is called for, rather, is the fellowship of patient Bible study, the fruit of which Mr. Fudge presents here."
LYNN MITCHELL, University of Houston, Texas: "One of the most important books produced by conservative evangelicals in the 20th century."
JOHN W. WENHAM (Deceased), Oxford, England: "The author is biblical, reverent and fair, showing soundness and independence of judgment. He makes his main points with force and persuasiveness."
CLARK H. PINNOCK, McMaster Divinity College, Hamilton, Ontario: "I know of no book which answers this powerful case."
W. WARD GASQUE, Eastern College, Philadelphia: "An important and thought-provoking book that gives careful attention to the actual words of Scripture."
DALE MOODY (Deceased), The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Ky: "I know of no biblical passage which, interpreted rightly and in context, conflicts with the conclusions of this book."
THOMAS H. OLBRICHT (Retired), Pepperdine University, Malibu, Calif: "Evidence for the common assumption that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment may not be as conclusive as assumed."
JOHN F. WALVOORD (Retired), Dallas Theological Seminary: "The most extensive study [of the subject] in recent years . . . commendably brings into the discussion many items that are often overlooked." (Dr. Walvoord expressly disagrees with the conclusions of this book.)
GEORGE LEONARD GOSS, former editor, Evangelical Book Club: "A thorough and convincing exposition."
NEW OXFORD REVIEW: "Exceptionally evenhanded, forceful and to the point."
MISSION JOURNAL: "A formidable scriptural argument which defenders of the popular view will be hard pressed to meet."
EVANGELICAL BOOK CLUB: "A thoughtful case for an opinion that deserves a hearing."
RESURRECTION MAGAZINE: "The definitive work on conditional immortality."
ADVENT CHRISTIAN WITNESS: "A work of impeccable scholarship and pleasing readability."
CHURCH OF ENGLAND NEWSPAPER: "Essential reading for anyone interested in the subject."
Edward Fudge
Hi cirisme,
The following was written by an evangelical who was brought up believing as you do about the state of the dead. Because it was what he always believed, it was very difficult (at first) for him to realize otherwise. His realization came via his undertaking the subject as a graduate thesis.
From:
http://www.edwardfudge.com/written/fire.html
Enjoy!
The Fire That Consumes
The Fire that Consumes exposes as unbiblical the popular tradition which says God will keep the wicked alive forever in unending torment. This exhaustive volume examines every biblical text on the subject and shows that hell involves the everlasting, total destruction of both body and soul. It also traces the development of the traditional view of unending conscious torment, from the early church fathers to the 20th century. An alternate selection of the Evangelical Book Club, this study has been acclaimed by scholars worldwide. Contains forewords by the late Professor F. F. Bruce of Manchester, England (both editions) and the late Dr. John W. Wenham of Oxford (Paternoster edition only).
Order the original edition of this groundbreaking book (504 pages) from www.iUniverse.com. Or order the Paternoster edition (226 pages) from Moyer's Family Bookstore by calling toll-free 1-800-632-6657.
WHAT REVIEWERS SAY ABOUT THE FIRE THAT CONSUMES
COLIN BROWN, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, Calif.: "A very strong case for rethinking the notion of the eternal torment of all the lost."
F. F. BRUCE (Deceased), University of Manchester, England: "While this subject is one on which there is no unanimity among evangelical Christians, it is at the same time one on which they have often engaged in fierce polemic. What is called for, rather, is the fellowship of patient Bible study, the fruit of which Mr. Fudge presents here."
LYNN MITCHELL, University of Houston, Texas: "One of the most important books produced by conservative evangelicals in the 20th century."
JOHN W. WENHAM (Deceased), Oxford, England: "The author is biblical, reverent and fair, showing soundness and independence of judgment. He makes his main points with force and persuasiveness."
CLARK H. PINNOCK, McMaster Divinity College, Hamilton, Ontario: "I know of no book which answers this powerful case."
W. WARD GASQUE, Eastern College, Philadelphia: "An important and thought-provoking book that gives careful attention to the actual words of Scripture."
DALE MOODY (Deceased), The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Ky: "I know of no biblical passage which, interpreted rightly and in context, conflicts with the conclusions of this book."
THOMAS H. OLBRICHT (Retired), Pepperdine University, Malibu, Calif: "Evidence for the common assumption that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment may not be as conclusive as assumed."
JOHN F. WALVOORD (Retired), Dallas Theological Seminary: "The most extensive study [of the subject] in recent years . . . commendably brings into the discussion many items that are often overlooked." (Dr. Walvoord expressly disagrees with the conclusions of this book.)
GEORGE LEONARD GOSS, former editor, Evangelical Book Club: "A thorough and convincing exposition."
NEW OXFORD REVIEW: "Exceptionally evenhanded, forceful and to the point."
MISSION JOURNAL: "A formidable scriptural argument which defenders of the popular view will be hard pressed to meet."
EVANGELICAL BOOK CLUB: "A thoughtful case for an opinion that deserves a hearing."
RESURRECTION MAGAZINE: "The definitive work on conditional immortality."
ADVENT CHRISTIAN WITNESS: "A work of impeccable scholarship and pleasing readability."
CHURCH OF ENGLAND NEWSPAPER: "Essential reading for anyone interested in the subject."
C
cirisme
Guest
To be completely honest, I don't what my church teaches in this area. To my knowledge, it has never even been mentioned in public.
o2,
To be extremely frank, you don't know how I was brought up. I could have been brought up atheist for all you know...
I would have if there had been scripture in there.
C
cirisme
Guest
<sigh> pages 14-15
C
cirisme
Guest
Re: I Don't Know Your "Favorites"
Re: I Don't Know Your "Favorites"
Look at page 16... the first 8 or so posts(and most of these posts aren't even a paragraph) by me are filled with verses and arguements. They're not very long and extremely noticeable, you won't have any problem finding them. Also, I saw an arguement you never answered...
To date all you have ever said about aion is that does not necessarily in every instance mean "forever"(which is a straw man since I never said it did), I asked you why aion should, in this case,(Revelation 20:10) be translated to mean a finite time and you didn't give me a real answer.
Re: I Don't Know Your "Favorites"
Look at page 16... the first 8 or so posts(and most of these posts aren't even a paragraph) by me are filled with verses and arguements. They're not very long and extremely noticeable, you won't have any problem finding them. Also, I saw an arguement you never answered...
To date all you have ever said about aion is that does not necessarily in every instance mean "forever"(which is a straw man since I never said it did), I asked you why aion should, in this case,(Revelation 20:10) be translated to mean a finite time and you didn't give me a real answer.
C
cirisme
Guest
...which is exactly what I am asking you to do!
C
cirisme
Guest
Sigh...
Sigh...
o2,
I asked why that verse should mean a limited time frame and supplied why I thought it did.(I said until either party dies) It seemed to me that you agreed and said the same about hell. I asked how that could be when death is done away with and you didn't answer. Care to?
Sigh...
o2,
I asked why that verse should mean a limited time frame and supplied why I thought it did.(I said until either party dies) It seemed to me that you agreed and said the same about hell. I asked how that could be when death is done away with and you didn't answer. Care to?