ECT "With" and "By"

[Danoh]

You Can’t Get By With This

By Pastor Ricky Kurth,
Berean Searchlight,
September, 2011, p. 4.​

One of Pastor Stam’s favorite jokes went something like this:

Teacher: “Johnny, what’s the difference between a pronoun and a preposition?”
Johnny: “Yeah, that’s what I say, what’s the difference!”

Despite Johnny’s indifference, we know there is a great deal of difference between pronouns and prepositions! These parts of speech are important, especially when it comes to Bible study. For instance, Pastor Stam once wrote:

“Not once does Paul in his epistles teach that members of the Body of Christ are baptized with or in the Spirit.”

In response to this, we sometimes get letters asking about this verse:

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body…” (I Cor. 12:13).

But a close look will reveal an important difference in the preposition used in each case. The Apostle Paul taught that believers today are baptized “by” the Spirit, but Pastor Stam doesn’t say we’re not baptized by the Spirit, he says we are not baptized “with” the Spirit. No contradiction here!

Speaking of Christ, John the Baptist predicted:

“He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 3:11).

This prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost, where “they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues” (Acts 2:4). It is important to notice that Christ is the Baptizer here, and that He baptized people with the Spirit. This is often confused with I Corinthians 12:13, but in this passage the Spirit is the Baptizer, baptizing people into the Body. That’s quite different than what happened at Pentecost, where the Lord was the Baptizer, baptizing people with the Spirit, enabling them to speak in tongues.

This explains why believers today are not able to speak in languages they never studied, as they did at Pentecost, for we do not have their baptism. But if we do not have their baptism, we must also conclude that at Pentecost they did not have our baptism. That is, we are not baptized by Christ with the Spirit, and they were not baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ.

We realize this runs contrary to the common teaching that the Church began at Pentecost, where it is said that believers were first baptized into the Body, but we believe the difference in prepositions used in these passages is just one of many evidences that the Body of Christ began later, with the raising up of Paul.

You just can’t get by with mixing with and by!

 

[turbosixx]

You Can’t Get By With This

By Pastor Ricky Kurth,
Berean Searchlight,
September, 2011, p. 4.​

One of Pastor Stam’s favorite jokes went something like this:

Teacher: “Johnny, what’s the difference between a pronoun and a preposition?”
Johnny: “Yeah, that’s what I say, what’s the difference!”

Despite Johnny’s indifference, we know there is a great deal of difference between pronouns and prepositions! These parts of speech are important, especially when it comes to Bible study. For instance, Pastor Stam once wrote:

“Not once does Paul in his epistles teach that members of the Body of Christ are baptized with or in the Spirit.”

In response to this, we sometimes get letters asking about this verse:

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body…” (I Cor. 12:13).

But a close look will reveal an important difference in the preposition used in each case. The Apostle Paul taught that believers today are baptized “by” the Spirit, but Pastor Stam doesn’t say we’re not baptized by the Spirit, he says we are not baptized “with” the Spirit. No contradiction here!

Speaking of Christ, John the Baptist predicted:

“He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 3:11).

This prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost, where “they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues” (Acts 2:4). It is important to notice that Christ is the Baptizer here, and that He baptized people with the Spirit. This is often confused with I Corinthians 12:13, but in this passage the Spirit is the Baptizer, baptizing people into the Body. That’s quite different than what happened at Pentecost, where the Lord was the Baptizer, baptizing people with the Spirit, enabling them to speak in tongues.

This explains why believers today are not able to speak in languages they never studied, as they did at Pentecost, for we do not have their baptism. But if we do not have their baptism, we must also conclude that at Pentecost they did not have our baptism. That is, we are not baptized by Christ with the Spirit, and they were not baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ.

We realize this runs contrary to the common teaching that the Church began at Pentecost, where it is said that believers were first baptized into the Body, but we believe the difference in prepositions used in these passages is just one of many evidences that the Body of Christ began later, with the raising up of Paul.

You just can’t get by with mixing with and by!

I agree with the part about baptized "with" because it's obvious that is an out pouring of the Spirit. The "by" is what I see differently.

2 Kings 5:14 So he (Naaman) went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.

Was he cleansed "by" the water or "by" the Spirit of God?


Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

When they believed and were baptized, who added the souls?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You Can’t Get By With This

By Pastor Ricky Kurth,
Berean Searchlight,
September, 2011, p. 4.​

One of Pastor Stam’s favorite jokes went something like this:

Teacher: “Johnny, what’s the difference between a pronoun and a preposition?”
Johnny: “Yeah, that’s what I say, what’s the difference!”

Despite Johnny’s indifference, we know there is a great deal of difference between pronouns and prepositions! These parts of speech are important, especially when it comes to Bible study. For instance, Pastor Stam once wrote:

“Not once does Paul in his epistles teach that members of the Body of Christ are baptized with or in the Spirit.”

In response to this, we sometimes get letters asking about this verse:

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body…” (I Cor. 12:13).

But a close look will reveal an important difference in the preposition used in each case. The Apostle Paul taught that believers today are baptized “by” the Spirit, but Pastor Stam doesn’t say we’re not baptized by the Spirit, he says we are not baptized “with” the Spirit. No contradiction here!

Speaking of Christ, John the Baptist predicted:

“He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost” (Matt. 3:11).

This prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost, where “they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues” (Acts 2:4). It is important to notice that Christ is the Baptizer here, and that He baptized people with the Spirit. This is often confused with I Corinthians 12:13, but in this passage the Spirit is the Baptizer, baptizing people into the Body. That’s quite different than what happened at Pentecost, where the Lord was the Baptizer, baptizing people with the Spirit, enabling them to speak in tongues.

This explains why believers today are not able to speak in languages they never studied, as they did at Pentecost, for we do not have their baptism. But if we do not have their baptism, we must also conclude that at Pentecost they did not have our baptism. That is, we are not baptized by Christ with the Spirit, and they were not baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ.

We realize this runs contrary to the common teaching that the Church began at Pentecost, where it is said that believers were first baptized into the Body, but we believe the difference in prepositions used in these passages is just one of many evidences that the Body of Christ began later, with the raising up of Paul.

You just can’t get by with mixing with and by!

Very weak evidence.

Jesus baptises believers with the Spirit, by the Spirit, with the Spirit ,in the Spirit.

The Church began at Pentecost as the Bible says---

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

You are missing out, and fighting so hard to stay outside of the Body of Christ which is His Bride, which is not His own resurrected body which is in Heaven.

LA

 

[jamie]

You just can’t get by with mixing with and by!

Much to do about nothing.

 

[patrick jane]

i like it -

 

[heir]

Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

When they believed and were baptized, who added the souls?

In answer to your question: the Lord added them.


Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


The Lord Jesus Christ was the baptizer!


Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

…

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



Not so with us! The Spirit is the baptizer where we are concerned!


1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It is a baptism into Jesus Christ/Christ’s death

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

...


Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[jamie]

Not so with us! The Spirit is the baptizer where we are concerned!

So are we baptized with God's Spirit so that we receive his Spirit or are we baptized by God's Spirit?

Or is both true?

 

[turbosixx]

In answer to your question: the Lord added them.


Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


The Lord Jesus Christ was the baptizer!

I agree, they were added by the Lord. Were they water baptized?

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When they were water baptized in the name of Jesus the Spirit added them. Just as Naaman was cleansed by the Spirit when he dipped in the Jordon. The Spirit would not have cleansed him without him dippinig.

We know many of the Corinthians were baptized some by Paul himself, so when he tells them they were baptized into one body they will think back to when they were baptized in the name of Jesus and then understand that the Spirit added them to the body at that time. Just as those on Pentecost when they were baptized the Spirit added them.

 

[turbosixx]

It is a baptism into Jesus Christ/Christ’s death

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom. 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

I can easily see how water baptism is like a death, burial and resurrection but I can't see how being spiritually baptized is. Could you please explain how it is?

 

[patrick jane]

View attachment 20329

 

[turbosixx]

View attachment 20329

Your chart has only one water baptism. Was this water? Was it John's baptism?

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

 

[patrick jane]

Your chart has only one water baptism. Was this water? Was it John's baptism?

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

that's Spirit baptism, water isn't necessary -

 

[turbosixx]

that's Spirit baptism, water isn't necessary -

So Peter understood Jesus meant Spirit baptism and not water?

Acts 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

 

[glorydaz]

Rom. 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

I can easily see how water baptism is like a death, burial and resurrection but I can't see how being spiritually baptized is. Could you please explain how it is?

I'm sure Heir can do a better job, but I'm wondering if you don't think our being "crucified with Christ" and being "dead to the law" are only something the Spirit could accomplish....rather than men dunking us in the water?

Gal. 2:19-20
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​

Here we see the "operation of God" whereby we are "circumcised with the circumcision made without hands"....in that "putting off the body of sins"....whereby water can never wash away sins and water baptism is not performed "without hands". Some guy dunks us with his hands. Then the "risen with him" relates back to the above...."the life which I now live" where we are raised into newness of life ie a new creature created IN CHRIST JESUS. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Eph. 2:10 Romans 6:4

Colossians 2:10-12
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

 

[heir]

I agree, they were added by the Lord. Were they water baptized?

Those in Acts 2 who repented were baptized (in water) for the remission of sins. Peter is preaching the same as John: a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins"!

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[heir]

I agree, they were added by the Lord. Were they water baptized?

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

When they were water baptized in the name of Jesus the Spirit added them. Just as Naaman was cleansed by the Spirit when he dipped in the Jordon. The Spirit would not have cleansed him without him dippinig.

We know many of the Corinthians were baptized some by Paul himself, so when he tells them they were baptized into one body they will think back to when they were baptized in the name of Jesus and then understand that the Spirit added them to the body at that time. Just as those on Pentecost when they were baptized the Spirit added them.

You can't show anywhere that the Spirit baptized those at Pentecost into the Body of Christ. Also, the Spirit did not add those of Acts 2, 3, 4, 5... to the church (the church of God) such as should be saved, but the Lord. Things that are different are not the same and are not meant for you to muddy by trying to make them the same.

 

[glorydaz]

Very weak evidence.

Jesus baptises believers with the Spirit, by the Spirit, with the Spirit ,in the Spirit.

The Church began at Pentecost as the Bible says---

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

You are missing out, and fighting so hard to stay outside of the Body of Christ which is His Bride, which is not His own resurrected body which is in Heaven.

LA

A perfect example of muddy waters. :chuckle:

 

[patrick jane]

So Peter understood Jesus meant Spirit baptism and not water?

Acts 10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

nope, Paul did

 

[turbosixx]

I'm sure Heir can do a better job, but I'm wondering if you don't think our being "crucified with Christ" and being "dead to the law" are only something the Spirit could accomplish....rather than men dunking us in the water?

Gal. 2:19-20
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​

Here we see the "operation of God" whereby we are "circumcised with the circumcision made without hands"....in that "putting off the body of sins"....whereby water can never wash away sins and water baptism is not performed "without hands". Some guy dunks us with his hands. Then the "risen with him" relates back to the above...."the life which I now live" where we are raised into newness of life ie a new creature created IN CHRIST JESUS. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Eph. 2:10 Romans 6:4

Colossians 2:10-12
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.​

I agree with with the verses you use but this is what I see is being overlooked. When the apostles, Paul included, went around preaching the gospel they baptized the believers in water in the name of Jesus. No where in the conversions do we see they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. So when Paul says baptism in ch. 12 they will think back to when they were baptized in water. Here is one place we are told the Corinthians were baptized, some by Paul.

Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

So Paul is telling them in ch. 12 what happened when they were baptized.

If you will notice, it's the same thing Jesus instructed.
Mark 15:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

 

[turbosixx]

nope, Paul did

Paul didn't baptize people in water?
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.