Why would God need a hell?
- Thread starter Mickiel
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God hates figs.
Psalms 105:33, Jeremiah 24:2-3, Jeremiah 29:17-18, Hosea 2:12, Joel 1:7, Matthew 21:19, Mark 11:13-14, 20
Stuart
Exactly right!
Merry Christmas Chrysostom.
If the doctrine of eternal torture is correct then either God wants to torture people alive for all eternity (and if so, such a "god" is unworthy of worship) or He is unable to prevent someone from torturing you for all eternity, which would mean that he isn't God.
You said it better than I did. Either option is unbelievable.
The truth is far better than eternal torture. God gives us the free gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord! Merry Christmas! "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.…"
Gloria in Excelsis!
Full post with hacked up statements in quote once again:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4563358&postcount=155
So you think doing what you do to the words of those you disagree with is the will of the Father and how you show His love through your own actions? Your full statement is quoted above; the same can be done with your statement, but how is it a fair treatment of your own words?
▲direct quote▲
Wow, thanks for finally speaking some truth Lon!
Yeshua Says: Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete out, it shall be measured to you again. And why behold you the speck that is in the eye of your brother, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull out the speck out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye! You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the speck out of the eye of your brother. Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you likewise even so to them: for this is the Torah and the Prophets. (Matthew 7:1-5, 12).
:yawn: Be afraid or don't be afraid. :idunno: Jesus spoke of hell more than any other person in the bible. Think he knew what he was talking about? :smokie:
Hell—the place of eternal torment described as: everlasting fire (Matt. 25:41), everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), outer darkness (Matt. 8:12), everlasting destruction (2 Thess. 1:9), lake of fire (Rev. 19:20). Punishment of, described as: bodily (Matt. 5:29, 30), in the soul (Matt. 10:28), with degrees (Matt. 23:14). Thomas Nelson Publishers. (1996). Nelson’s quick reference topical Bible index (p. 283). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
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“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it (Mt 7:13–14, emphasis mine).
Jesus loves you (Jn 3:16). Jesus is willing to save you (2 Pe 3:9). Repent (Eze 18:30-32; Ac 17:30). Believe (Mk 9:23).
See:
Is universalism / universal salvation biblical?
Eccl 3:11
For someone to be tortured endlessly would require the gift of eternal life. God is not that shortsighted. He knows the end from the beginning and has no reason to give the gift of eternal life to a person he would have to punish endlessly.
Why do you believe sinners are given the gift of eternal life when Paul says the opposite?
Why do you believe sinners are given the gift of eternal life when Paul says the opposite?
Lon
Well-known member
Well rats. Here we go:
#1 How would you or I know? We assume a lot as finite and imperfect human beings. I used to think my Mom didn't love me whenever she spanked me (no comparison, but to point out I thought I was right, but was obviously wrong).
#2 I'm not sure that would make Him all-powerful or all-loving.
#3 "Can't?" If He 'can' why must He? Are you giving God morality lessons? Are you quantifying His power? Are you suggesting that God "isn't" love? Scripture makes no qualms about hell or God is love. You 'could' look and find out why that is, or do like others in thread and make up a 'better' god of your own choosing. If there is a God, I must conform to His image. It cannot be the other way around.
#4 The Christmas story is that God sent His Son to seek and save that which is lost. It is the way God chose. This thread is a rejection of Jesus Christ and makes His sacrifice, for them, rejected and unnecessary. If there is no hell, there is no need for Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15:17-19
Men were made to live forever somewhere. Where that is is there choice. Mt 12:32
As a reminder jamie is number 18 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:
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Yes, all men were drawn to Messiah in that great day of Golgotha. That is likewise the teaching of Paul in the following passage:
2 Corinthians 5:14 YLT
14. for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,
2 Corinthians 5:14 ASV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;
The good news message of the Gospel is Messiah Yeshua, and the crucifixion of Messiah Yeshua, and the resurrection of Messiah Yeshua. You may not have been walking upon the earth in that great day but, no doubt, you were somewhere upon the earth like a seed in the loins of a distant father of the flesh, and that one died in that great day: for thus we judge, that if one died for all, then surely all died in that great day of atonement at Golgotha; yea, even every living soul that was in the sea died, (Rev 16:3). Welcome to the new world order of the ages.
The answer is very simple and clear.
Matthews: 7 KJV N.T.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew: 22 KJV N.T.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew: 7 KJV N.T.
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Galatians: 4 KJV N.T.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son (i.e. the child of the flesh): for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman (i.e. the child of God)
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
God need a hell to put the very great majority of those called to Christianity. The very great majority of those called to Christianity, all err and are not chosen for His Kingdom of heaven.
Only a few make it to heaven (many are called and few chosen).
Any other idea is simply wish-fill thinking and a corruption of truth.
You will be best served if you abandon your inquire. Accepts things as they are and seek the path to be among the chosen few.
Your inquiry will do you no good. Only foolish people will 'feel sorry for each other' and start a 'that is not fair' discussion and club, so as to seek ways to change the truth, as clearly confirmed in the KJV N.T.
The prophesy is clear: 'children of the flesh' will not inherit earth in the fullness of time when God's kingdom of heaven come fully to the surface of earth . . . they will not inherit the surface of earth together with children of God.
Children of the flesh must go else where. Hell is provided for them. They go to hell.
The above is the plan of the Lord Jesus and God. It is clearly stated in the KJV N.T. Your only choice is to get real. Get to the the approach which can make you one among the chosen few. Your 'bleeding' post will get you absolutely no where.
"STOP" and seek ye first the Kingdom of God within.
"STOP" all this crying and begging and pleading and looking for loop holes.
Is it not fair that those who do not do the will of God, go to hell?
If the very great majority of those called to Christianity are not chosen. It must be that the idea you guys have for doing the will of God and for being saved and chosen is totally wrong. You have to get real.
Obvious the wide spread belief among traditional Christians, that Jesus dies for all is wrong or not the whole things. If it was all a done deal The Lord would not say many are called and few chosen.
In order to be saved and delivered into God's kingdom of heaven and not into hell, requires works. One must do the will of God, who is in heaven.
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Mickiel
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Jesus death was a benefit for everyone , not for just a particular group of humans; Heb. 10:10, 'By which we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for ALL!" Again this great salvation is all inclusive, no one is left out. Religion is trying to leave people out for any reason they can find; its a negative spirit of reduction.
If Christ died for you, you are saved, you don't have to go through the Christian obstacle course.
If Christ died for you, you are saved, you don't have to go through the Christian obstacle course.
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: Heard the Christmas story? Know about Jesus Christ? As a 7 year old, when I heard what God had done, I KNEW it was a big deal.
Like in this life, we have a place as believers and unbelievers. In the next, there is a separation, and necessary or it would be just like here, forever. I try to take truths in increments when I have a hang-up. God chose Jesus Christ His Son as the means for redeeming people. The peril must have been real or God wouldn't have chose this specific way.
Scripture talks about suffering with those who suffer. I have family I care about, so I don't think lack of empathy is my problem, Arthur. You are correct, I didn't feel my wife's pain while going through cancer treatment, but she is flesh of my flesh.
I think you do, and you and I aren't. Your empathy is a good thing. Job certainly wrestled with God, but he also loved God. In my Christianity, I don't understand everything of God. I am but a finite creature trying not to redefine the infinite into finite terms. There are a lot of things I don't get, but I do genuinely get John 3:11-21
:doh: Then there is no point, Arthur. You might as well make up the god you want to believe in. You pretty much just closed off my only reason for entering the conversation with you: to point to the God who exists, rather than one we make up as we go. It does illustrate the difference in thread between gods though.
There are different forms of Calvinism, and this one is fatalism of which I do not subscribe. I don't believe God nor we sit back during this life, but both are intricately part of the story played out. I don't believe in fatalism.
Let's just take the current thread. There are only two sides that matter, the side who are giving scripture, and the side that rejects the scriptures. There isn't much need to fracture the 'scriptures' side. It serves no purpose, rather it is about what scripture says and if one accepts it. This thread is far from even that first step. You have cut that off as well. There is no point after this post for me to continue. It would place me on the "non-scripture" side and I'm not willing to take part of that conversation. Such is merely the collision of opinion that cannot matter. I didn't get to write history, just interpret it. It becomes fiction after that.
Yes, when you form a rally with not much deep thought, but reactionary angst, it is a sign of youth. We don't often see senior citizens with picket signs. We tend to think a bit more before congregating.
This particular topic requires scriptural reading and contemplation, when wrestling with the God of the universe. You seem to have cut off that part of concern so there isn't anything left I can continue with in thread or indeed many others.
Zeke
Well-known member
Pretty easy to discern which side of the issues being debated back then was putting others in prison, persecuting them and destroying their lives and writings 2Cor 3:6, That same worldly spirit is in you're theology which mocks grace and the sanity of the Creator.
A faith that Patronizes the world system, and uses it's ID to survive through, And rightly mimics it's policies and attitude in its theology then and now.
Mickiel
New member
In John 4:34, " My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." Why did God send Jesus to earth, what work is he talking about? 1 John 4:14, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World!" That is the work Jesus finished, to save this whole world! When Jesus said " It is finished", he meant the salvation of all. This is again good news for the unbelievers that Christianity is condemning.
Well, we know the concept of universal salvation is not valid.
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