Sonnet
New member
You are suggesting that those whom you would describe as the non-elect do not fit the description of 'snake-bitten and in need of a cure'?
ECT Who was not ransomed?
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
You are suggesting that those whom you would describe as the non-elect do not fit the description of 'snake-bitten and in need of a cure'?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
No, the non-elect are dying of the lethal "bite" of sin, but they will not look to Christ to be healed.
Sonnet
New member
But I asked you:
'Whom do they (the snake-bitten) point to in the target of His analogy?'
You said the 'elect' - but you agree that the 'non-elect' also fit the description ('snake-bitten and in need of a cure') - so then both the 'elect' and 'non-elect' are pointed to (moving from the source to the target of the analogy).
Since you say they 'will not look', then you are admitting that they are included in the provision of those that might benefit.
Sonnet
New member
Where in the analogy does Jesus make manifest such a limitation as you do?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Right. All men are dying from sin, but not all are gifted with faith to believe and look to God's cure for sin.
Sonnet
New member
Nonetheless, such as those who won't 'look', who won't turn in hope and assurance, they are still provided for.
The fact is that the cross is not the only saving instrumentality. The atonement made all men savable not just those who will be saved. But part of the salvation package includes God's special calling that can not be rejected by those who ultimately are saved.
The reality is that even infants died in the flood. We should not base God's saving of men upon our human vantage point from human emotions. We should only recognize that God's love found a way to save Adam. Some of the mass of humanity will be saved and some are passed over.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Nang
TOL Subscriber
////
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Nang
TOL Subscriber
How?
Sonnet
New member
Jesus' use of 'just as' makes it an analogy.
Which, for whatever reason, could have been ignored. Looking was required - but if you didn't look the serpent was still made available for you.
We need not concern ourselves with 'other people' since analogies don't work that way. If Jesus wanted to make an analogy with such other folk, then he would have explicitly said so.
Right.
Sonnet
New member
Because they are not excluded. The option to 'look' is real.
Sonnet
New member
Nothing in Jesus' analogy in any way suggests your 'special calling' which would impose a restriction on the number of folk who can 'look'.
Sonnet
New member
Calvinist Charles Spurgeon:
It is quite certain that when we read that God will have all men to be saved it does not mean that he wills it with the force of a decree or a divine purpose, for, if he did, then all men would be saved. He willed to make the world, and the world was made: he does not so will the salvation of all men, for we know that all men will not be saved. Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from holy writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Saviour, will go away into everlasting punishment, where shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. There will at the last be goats upon the left hand as well as sheep on the right, tares to be burned as well as wheat to be garnered, chaff to be blown away as well as corn to be preserved. There will be a dreadful hell as well as a glorious heaven, and there is no decree to the contrary.
What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
Sonnet
New member
Such words comfirm that which Jesus already spoke of:
"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
No one can deny that the provision is for all; and to TRULY be for all, all must have be able (under drawing (John 12:32)) to turn and look to Christ just as the Israelites could in the OT story.
To deny this would be to deny the sincerity of Paul's appeal in Romans 10:1ff.
Last edited:
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The bolded above reflects the Pelagian view, that sinful men retain inner virtue, and are able to save themselves. This is the humanistic worship of man and free-willism which is error.
Sinful man is not able to believe and respond to the Gospel because they are not willing. Their hearts are hard as rocks, and there is no faith nor love of God in them. They must first be given new hearts and be raised to new spiritual life before they will respond in faith unto justification. John Chapter 3
Sonnet
New member
No it isn't - look up the definition of Pelagianism.
Paul thought differently - Romans 10:1ff
Which you haven't proven, though of course John 12:32 affirms that no man does it on his own.
Nothing whatsoever there that will avail your doctrine.
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...not-ransomed&p=4712356&viewfull=1#post4712356
Sonnet
New member
Paul was quite mistaken then?
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”