ECT Who is saved?

oatmeal

Well-known member
I'll first make two bold statements and then try to explain why i've said them.

1) There is no such thing as "believing" well enough to be saved .

We as humans perform or fulfill hundreds of acts of Faith every hour . Faith or the act faithing (pisteuo) is an act , based upon a belief , sustained by confidense . We fulfill 3 or 4 acts of Faith just getting out of bed in the morning .

NT Faith or faithing is a specific act , based upon a specific belief , and sustained by a specific confidense . The specific act is the continual surrendering of our lives to Christ , based upon the belief that He will accept the surrendered life , and sustained by making decisions that its His life now and not ours . This understanding of NT Faith that saves coincides with the Vines Greek dictionary definition of Pisteuo .

2) There is no such thing as doubting in your belief of Him that would cause one to loose their Salvation .

" Doubting " is the fruit of the mistranslated word pisteuo into the NT . There is no word in the Greek for the English words believe , believer, and believing . The reason being the Greek language is as close to a perfect language the planet has . The Greeks simply did not acknowledge a state of being where one is only believing . They understand that a person is either moving closer to God "pisteuo" or they are moving away from God "Apisteuo". They do not acknowledge a nuetral state of being .

Now what makes it even more confusing , if you were to check what i'm telling you by Googling the english word "believe" to find the appropriate Greek word it would give you "pisteuo". The reason being is that the mistranslated word has been stamped back on the Greek word pisteuo so that the true meaning has been all but lost .

I know what i'm presenting to you is confusing . If you would ask some questions that come to mind i think i could explain it better.

No man can believe in himself enough to be saved.

The only man that could do the works necessary for anyone's salvation is Jesus Christ.

Did Abraham have faith?

How about Noah or Joshua?

You might want to look at Galatians 3:22-26

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Note the phrase, "before faith came"

Clearly there was a time before faith came. What did believers do before faith came? They believed.

What did Noah believe? He believed what He knew of God and acted accordingly. One notable specific act that Noah did in believing God is to build the ark.

Noah did not have faith for faith came by Jesus Christ.

Faith is a part of, or another name for the gift of salvation that those in this age of grace can receive by believing. Believing what? Specifically, Romans 10:9, when anyone confesses with the mouth the lord Jesus and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead, they receive salvation.

It takes believing to confess and it takes believing to believe.

See also Romans 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Who are these "every man"?

Those who believed to receive, they believed and God dealt to them the measure of faith, specifically that measure of faith is the measure of the faith of Jesus Christ.

Having been given that measure of faith of Jesus Christ we now have the potential to fulfill John 14:12 in our lives.

How do we activate that measure of faith? that faith of Jesus Christ? by believing what God word says we should believe.

What is believing God? It is holding God's word in mind and acting accordingly

As for for your second point, the gift of salvation is eternal, there is no losing the gift of salvation.

Even if we die before Jesus Christ returns, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, we will rise from the dead and we get a new body and God reactivates that gift of eternal life.
 

Faither

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Yes I'm sort of willing, because although I have the answer it most likely will not be accepted and no one likes rejection. This is because is involves reincarnation and only about 10% of Christians believe in this so most will automatically reject any such idea. If you wish to know more just say the word or I'll be wasting both our time.

I don't know how reincarnation would hinder discussion i presented. Answer #37 if you are still interested .
 

Faither

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Banned
No man can believe in himself enough to be saved.

The only man that could do the works necessary for anyone's salvation is Jesus Christ.

Did Abraham have faith?

How about Noah or Joshua?

You might want to look at Galatians 3:22-26

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Note the phrase, "before faith came"

Clearly there was a time before faith came. What did believers do before faith came? They believed.

What did Noah believe? He believed what He knew of God and acted accordingly. One notable specific act that Noah did in believing God is to build the ark.

Noah did not have faith for faith came by Jesus Christ.

Faith is a part of, or another name for the gift of salvation that those in this age of grace can receive by believing. Believing what? Specifically, Romans 10:9, when anyone confesses with the mouth the lord Jesus and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead, they receive salvation.

It takes believing to confess and it takes believing to believe.

See also Romans 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Who are these "every man"?

Those who believed to receive, they believed and God dealt to them the measure of faith, specifically that measure of faith is the measure of the faith of Jesus Christ.

Having been given that measure of faith of Jesus Christ we now have the potential to fulfill John 14:12 in our lives.

How do we activate that measure of faith? that faith of Jesus Christ? by believing what God word says we should believe.

What is believing God? It is holding God's word in mind and acting accordingly

As for for your second point, the gift of salvation is eternal, there is no losing the gift of salvation.

Even if we die before Jesus Christ returns, I Thessalonians 4:13-18, we will rise from the dead and we get a new body and God reactivates that gift of eternal life.

If you submitt to my request and start a discussion about how the Salvation journey starts we could stay on the same page so to speak . If your willing , answer# 37. We'll go step by step.
 

Faither

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I've stated Faithing and or surrendering is continual . it starts , maintains , and completes the relationship here on earth.

The first surrender only starts the Salvation process or journey . This opportunity to start to faithe or surrender to Christ can only happen "if" we have been drawn by the Father to do so.

At the beginning stage of the Salvation journey we do not have been given the Grace deposit oor the Holy Spirit yet , so Christ and any of His Word or the promises there in are not ours yet. So you can't loose something you don't have.

There is alot to discuss if your willing , but if you don't understand what i'm presenting , lets stop and make sure were on the same page.

Are you sure you understand what true NT Faith and faithing are ? Faith and pistis are the noun , pisteuo is the verb and was mistranslated into the English because we have no verb form of Faith in the English language . The mistranslated words are believe , believer , and believing. The words we should have had for the translators are Faithe , faither , and faithing . Both the noun pistis and the verb pisteuo are used 248 times each.

The only verse that would apply to the very start of the Salvation journey would be Rom 8 :9 .[/QUOTE



Hi and Rom 10:9 says , But IF should confess with your mouth (the ) Lord Jesus , and should believe in your heart that God rauised Him from ( the ) dead , you will be saved !!

#1 , All have to confess !!

#2 , Shall believe !!

#3 , That God raised Jesus from the dead !!

#4 Thou SHALL BE SAVED !!

#5 The first verb is THOU SHALL CONFESS is in the Greek AOTIST TENSE and ACTIVE VOICE a in the SUBJECTIVE MOOD !!

#6 The first verb is controlled by the SUBJECTIVE MOOD which means that not everyone will confess Jesus as LORD !!

No one can be saved as 1 Cor 12:3 says NO ONE IS ABLE TO SAY Lord Jesus EXCEPT BY Holy Spirit and it is done by the GIFT of Faith as written in Eph 2:8 !!

When anyone confesses that He is Lord , it means He is your Master and Lord and without the Holy Spirit NO ONE CAN BE SAVED !!

dan p

If you want to answer # 37 maybe we could discuss this better.
 

Faither

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Hi and maybe you are not seeing that I have answered , and if not , give what you want ?

dan p

Here we are at the start of the Salvation journey. 1) The first thing that must happen is we must be called or drawn to Christ by the Father .

2) At this beginning stage we are described by Rom 8:9 , where we do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet , so Christ and His Word are not ours yet.

Are you in agreement so far with this very beginning part of the Salvation journey .

Yes or no ?
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Here we are at the start of the Salvation journey. 1) The first thing that must happen is we must be called or drawn to Christ by the Father .

2) At this beginning stage we are described by Rom 8:9 , where we do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet , so Christ and His Word are not ours yet.

Are you in agreement so far with this very beginning part of the Salvation journey .

Yes or no ?



Himand the God only DRAWS those in the Kingdom of Heaven , and CONTEXT is wrong !!

1 Cor 2:14 , are all un-believers , consider the bible FOOLISHNESS and can not know it as it is spiritually discerned !!

God has to open the heart as God did with Lydia in Acts 16:14 !!

Then Eph 2:8 kicks in when God gives the GIFT of faith to believe !!

Then Rom 10:9 savs that person , NO OTHER WAY !!

Can you explain how Paul was saved in Acts 9:6 ??

Or care to EXPLAIN in Rom 5:14 how people were saved From Adam to Moses ??

dan p
 

Faither

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Here we are at the start of the Salvation journey. 1) The first thing that must happen is we must be called or drawn to Christ by the Father .

2) At this beginning stage we are described by Rom 8:9 , where we do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet , so Christ and His Word are not ours yet.

Are you in agreement so far ? Anyone ?
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Here we are at the start of the Salvation journey. 1) The first thing that must happen is we must be called or drawn to Christ by the Father .

2) At this beginning stage we are described by Rom 8:9 , where we do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet , so Christ and His Word are not ours yet.

Are you in agreement so far ? Anyone ?


Hi and JUST how do we receive the Holy Spirit ??

Give me a verse , like 1 Cor 12:13 ?

When do we receive the Holy Spirit , 1 Cor 12:3 ??

Do you understand 1 Cor 12:3 and what it means ??

SAY , YES or NO ?

dan p
 

Danoh

New member
Himand the God only DRAWS those in the Kingdom of Heaven , and CONTEXT is wrong !!

1 Cor 2:14 , are all un-believers , consider the bible FOOLISHNESS and can not know it as it is spiritually discerned !!

God has to open the heart as God did with Lydia in Acts 16:14 !!

Then Eph 2:8 kicks in when God gives the GIFT of faith to believe !!

Then Rom 10:9 savs that person , NO OTHER WAY !!

Can you explain how Paul was saved in Acts 9:6 ??

Or care to EXPLAIN in Rom 5:14 how people were saved From Adam to Moses ??

dan p

So you're somewhat Calvinist.

I'd heard there were such kinds of hybrids also within MAD. :chuckle:

_________

* Hybrid: the fusing of, or the result of fusing things together, that are normally not the same.

Not necessarily a bad thing when the right things are fused together...

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

A bad thing, however, when things that do not go together, are made to...

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 

Faither

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Banned
Hi and JUST how do we receive the Holy Spirit ??

Give me a verse , like 1 Cor 12:13 ?

When do we receive the Holy Spirit , 1 Cor 12:3 ??

Do you understand 1 Cor 12:3 and what it means ??

SAY , YES or NO ?

dan p

I thought we were going to start at the beginning , when we do not have the Holy Spirit yet ?

Your jumping right into how we "get" the holy Spirit . Your kind of all over the place for me to have a discussion about this with you , i think i'll pass and put the offer out for others to respond to. Thanks for the reply though.

Anyone else want to take this journey , the Salvation journey ? It starts by answering # 37 .
 

Faither

BANNED
Banned
So you're somewhat Calvinist.

I'd heard there were such kinds of hybrids also within MAD. :chuckle:

_________

* Hybrid: the fusing of, or the result of fusing things together, that are normally not the same.

Not necessarily a bad thing when the right things are fused together...

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

A bad thing, however, when things that do not go together, are made to...

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Hey danoh ,

How have you been. it's been a while since we talked . I still have bone bruises from the beating i took , lol.

Glad to see your still yearning to know Him better , as am i.
 

Patrick Cronin

New member
I have some questions for you: When a person is "Saved" what do you say actually happens? Do you understand it to mean that your sins are forgiven? And/or that you become pleasing to God? And/or that you are destined for heaven irrespective of how you behave from that moment on?
And finally:What is the place of LOVE both of God and neighbour in "being saved"?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Here we are at the start of the Salvation journey. 1) The first thing that must happen is we must be called or drawn to Christ by the Father .

Rather, we are drawn by the preaching of the cross.

John 12:32-33
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.​

1 Corinthians 1:17-19
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.​
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Anyone who confesses with their mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart God raised him from the dead.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
That's not the formula of our salvation. This is:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord.Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven.(Matthew 7:21) So 'confessing with the mouth' must also be accompanied by a transformation of behaviour and avoidance of evil thoughts and actions. That sounds ominously like 'good works'!
Matthew has nothing to do with the gospel of our salvation. It wasn't even written to us.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
I have some questions for you: When a person is "Saved" what do you say actually happens?
Romans 5:9 KJV, 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV

Do you understand it to mean that your sins are forgiven?
Forgiveness precedes salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV).
And/or that you become pleasing to God? And/or that you are destined for heaven irrespective of how you behave from that moment on?
Our salvation has nothing to do with our works (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV) and therefore is not maintained by our works. We Those who have trusted the Lord believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) are identified by one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV) and sealed (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Epheians 4:30 KJV).
And finally:What is the place of LOVE both of God and neighbour in "being saved"?
I'm not sure what you are asking. Can you rephrase the question (not that you were asking me, but I'd like the opportunity to answer)?
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
I don't know how reincarnation would hinder discussion i presented. Answer #37 if you are still interested .

Most Christian's know that traditionally Christian teaching say's there is no such thing as reincarnation and indeed Christian's often use the only verse in the entire Bible that seems to 'prove' reincarnation is not real, which is Hebrews 9:27. Unfortunately this is because of a general mistranslation and a misunderstood verse and chapter. Here is the direct original Greek translation from the Interlinear Bible (the most accurate word for word translation):

Hebrews 9:27
And down to which, a which it situateth off, unto the ones, unto mankind, to once to have had died off, with moreover to the one, this a separating.

Notice that it say's mankind, most translations however instead say 'man' but the Weymouth New Testament translation, which has the closest match to the original wording, dose correctly translate it as mankind:

Hebrews 9:27
And since it is reserved for all mankind once to die, and afterwards to be judged.

It is still not know who wrote Hebrew's and whether it was Paul and or Apollos, Barnabas, or Zeanos, what it clear is that the writer throughout chapter nine uses the word mankind rather than just the word 'man'. Chapter nine is about the broader picture of God's plan for mankind and how Jesus only had to die once for mankind’s redemption, unlike the repeated mosaic sacrificial system. This was an important question at the time for the new Jewish Christian's. The writer then explains similarly that mankind will also die once and then face a final judgement. The writer does not suddenly change from talking about the larger picture of God's plan for mankind, to then just focusing on each individual's person's death. Instead he is actually talking about the final judgement that John writes about in chapter twenty of Revelation:

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne, and One who was seated on it [God], from whose presence earth, and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing in front of the throne. And books were opened; and so was another book, namely the Book of Life; and the dead were judged by the things recorded in the books in accordance with what their conduct had been. Then the sea yielded up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades yielded up the dead who were in them, and each man was judged in accordance with what his conduct had been. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire; this is the Second Death, the Lake of fire. And if any one's name was not found recorded in the Book of Life he was thrown into the Lake of fire.

It is true of course that each individual is judged at their death as to whether they had faith in Jesus as there saviour, which determines if they go to Heaven or Hell but the judgement for the rewards of conduct are not done till the final judgement after the millennial reign of Christ. There is a partial reward for the 144,000 at the second coming of Christ, when they receive their resurrected bodies a thousand years before the great multitude get their resurrected bodies at the second resurrection:

Revelations 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.[The twenty four elders] And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus, and because of the word of God. [The 144,000] They had not worshipped the beast [The Anti-Christ] or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. [The great multitude]) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection [The 144,000]. The second death [The lake of fire] has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Throughout history Christian sects have sprung up with the truth that reincarnation is real, such as the Gnostics, Sethian, Valentinus, and Cather's for example but all were eventually squashed and killed off as heretic’s, mainly by the Catholic church. Such as in 1209 when they in-sighted crusader's to burn hundred's of Cather's alive at Montsegur, near Toulouse, in the south of France. Indeed, reincarnation is taught in the Jewish tradition's and this verse is often sited as alluding to reincarnation:

Job 33:29-30
“Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life.

Jesus Himself and His disciples alluded to reincarnation a number of times too. For instance, Jesus stated that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist but he was not recognised and that Elijah would come again to restore all things, which John the Baptist clearly did not fulfil:

Mathew 17:10-13
The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

There are a number of other scriptures too where Jesus suggests or speaks about reincarnation:

Matthew 16:28
Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Some Christians say this is referring to the Transfiguration but Jesus did not come in His Kingdom at that time. Instead Jesus was stating that some of the disciples with Him would be alive when He returns in the power and majesty of His Kingdom at His second coming. This could only happen if they are reincarnated to be alive at the time of Jesus’ return. Here’s another time that Jesus referred to us having more than one life.

John 21:20-23
Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the disciple John, who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” Because of this, the rumour spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

The only way John could be alive at Jesus' second coming is if he is reincarnated. The disciples also alluded to reincarnation when they suggested the man born blind may have sinned in a previous life:

John 9:2
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

It’s perhaps also worth pointing out that there are two types of deaths:

Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is the second death.

It explains here that death itself and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is like the Hell of Hell's. Death was one of the curses placed on man after the fall and it is this curse of our ‘first’ earthly type of death that we experience at the end of each life, which will be removed from those who enter into Heaven after the judgement, allowing those in Heaven and on the New Earth to live forever. Thus death will be destroyed in the lake of fire; which is the second and final type of death.

Beside these Biblical allusions there have been thousands of accounts of near death experiences throughout history, which point to an afterlife and equally, there numerous accounts from of people that have purported to have lived before their current life too.

One estimate of how many Christians actually believe in reincarnation anyway is about one in ten and it makes far more sense that we are reincarnated, as this way everyone would be given a fair chance to hear the message that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins. Otherwise all those who’d lived and died before Jesus came the first time, as well as all those who haven’t heard about Him since His resurrection; through no fault of their own, would be able to hear the Gospel and consider for themselves whether His message was true or not. Thus Jesus would be able to judge everyone equally on this basis. After all salvation and entry to heaven is only through Jesus:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

It would be just like a fair and just God to give us several lifetimes to give us as many chances as possible to turn to His Son, especially when He loves us so much that he gave His only Son to die for us. I believe we have all had many lives throughout history and that this created reality is part of a larger refining process, that will result in a perfect order when God the Farther returns to renew Heaven and Earth after the Millennial Reign. The Millennial Reign will be when everyone who has yet to be saved will get another chance on Earth but this time with Jesus as their King who they will be able to see, this is when the great Multitude will be saved, and is why Jesus said:

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

The blessed are the 144,000 who will reign as Priests of God and Christ for the thousand years.

I also believe this revelation about reincarnation will be and is being revealed now in these end times, because for all intents and purposes, this will be our last life before Jesus returns because His return is so close. So even the misinterpretation of Hebrews is actually ‘quite’ true, in the sense that because most of us will die during the tribulation, most will face a judgement after our last earthly death in this current age.

Also, the reason I believe this revelation wasn’t allowed to be widely accepted before now; was to impress upon us, over the last two thousand years, the importance of making that critical choice, whether to believe in Jesus or not, without thinking that we may get another chance in another life. Consider the recent rise in the population of the Earth, it’s greater now than ever before, as if we’re all being gathered together for one last chance to hear about Jesus. Don’t you think?
 
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