Who Hates Academic Freedom?

[aikido7]

And with this statement you prove that you are woefully uninformed about these matters.


Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!" And Jesus responded, "Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven. (Mat 16:16-17 CSB)

Jesus said "Why call me good? Only God is good."
Jesus did not preach in propositional theology or make statements of dogma.
He avoided agreeing with those who called him God in many other places in the four gospels. Even John's account, which is full of theology and not much history, has a tradition recorded where Jesus says "God is greater than I."

What do you do with these separate and contradictory traditions?

Do you ignore one and embrace the other?

Or, because they are both in the Bible, see them dispassionately and with respect and serious thinking?

All traditions and theologies in the Bible came from men who were inspired by God to give their own thoughts, feelings and beliefs to what they wrote. We need to respect them and give them some dignity.

They were people--not parrots. They were thinkers, not memorizers.

Sorry but I regard most of the theological language and interpretations that grew up after Jesus died to be later additions placed into his mouth by the gospel authors. For example, the vitriolic anti-Semitic language of Jesus in the Book of John reflects John's community's conflict with Jews who had not yet accepted Jesus as Messiah, Son of God, or whatever. So John put his own invective into Jesus' mouth.

We all want a Jesus that makes sense to us. John did it, Mark did it, Matthew did it and Luke did it. And more importantly, WE do it.

 

[aikido7]

:nono:

The bold part is completely wrong.

The priesthood of all believers does not say that everyone is entitled to their own privatized interpretation of the bible. It says that everyone is responsible for reading, studying and interpreting the bible which means that everyone is responsible for getting it right.

I agree with the Baptist view. Everyone is responsible: you, me, clergy and historians. We all have different ways of talking about and seeing Jesus.

That, for better or worse, is the human condition. It is sometimes said that it would truly be "a boring world" if we all thought alike.

 

[aikido7]

That explains a lot...

God does frame certain things with words of absolute truth... which you reject. *

To be completely honest, I cannot take in absolute truth. It's too much for my finite mind. It's like Moses having to avert his face in the cleft of the rock when Yahweh passes by.

I have to make my own judgments and cherry-pick my way through God's immense (infinite) cherry orchard. In truth, I am condemned to do so. That's what makes a human life, in my view.

Those who get a sense of absolute truth are people like the mystics where it all seems to flow into them from Heaven. But even then they can only communicate what they encounter with words--mostly metaphors and parabolic vision.

 

[noguru]

I agree with the Baptist view. Everyone is responsible: you, me, clergy and historians. We all have different ways of talking about and seeing Jesus.

That, for better or worse, is the human condition. It is sometimes said that it would truly be "a boring world" if we all thought alike.

But you see Dialogos wants academic freedom to challenge the reasonably sound science he does not like, while reserving the right to prohibit others (in order to maintain the "traditionalist" view he likes) from having academic freedom in theology.

And what was that he said earlier?

We do not have to fear oppression from his authoritarian nature (I am paraphrasing).

:rotfl:

I doubt he will be back to answer the very important questions I have asked, that could help get his real intentions out on the table for all to see.

 

[aikido7]

...
Academic freedom you say?

Come on back when you are ready.

Come back when I am ready to agree with you?
Or sign off on some ancient theological formulation as being literally true?
What, specifically, does "ready" mean to you, noguru?

 

[aikido7]

But you see Dialogos wants academic freedom to challenge the reasonably sound science he does not like, while reserving the right to prohibit others, in order to maintain the "traditionalist" view he likes, from having academic freedom in theology.

Thank God there has always been academic freedom in writing about Christianity. Unless you are "people of the book" like violent Muslims or fundamentalist Christian believers are.

I think we, the Muslims and the Jews are people WITH the book.
Being human, we are going to have normal, natural feelings about the Bible. And we should not be prevented from sharing them with the public.

 

[noguru]

Come back when I am ready to agree with you?
Or sign off on some ancient theological formulation as being literally true?
What, specifically, does "ready" mean to you, noguru?

My response was to Dialogos.

I meant "ready" as in "willing" to be forthright about one's opinions. But you see Dialogos does not believe his views on theology are based on his opinion. He thinks he has mastered absolute knowledge, his views are "right", and completely in line with God's understanding.

 

[aikido7]

My response was to Dialogos.

I meant "ready" as in "willing" to be forthright about one's opinions. But you see Dialogos does not believe his views on theology are based on his opinion. He thinks he has mastered absolute knowledge, his views are "right", and completely in line with God's understanding.

Sorry for the confusion.

So Dialogos believes the Bible to be inerrant, yet also believes his understanding of it is also inerrant?

Too arrogant for me. He needs to know he is just like everyone else in that regard: finite minds trying to grasp the infinite.

 

[noguru]

Thank God there has always been academic freedom in writing about Christianity. Unless you are "people of the book" like violent Muslims or fundamentalist Christian believers are.

I think we, the Muslims and the Jews are people WITH the book.
Being human, we are going to have normal, natural feelings about the Bible. And we should not be prevented from sharing them with the public.

I agree. But there are many who do not want academic freedom in theology. And they have the audacity to claim their "authoritarian" nature in theology, which they believe is the highest principle, will not spill over into other areas of life.

And an old priest said, "Speak to us of Religion."
And he said:
Have I spoken this day of aught else?
Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,
And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?
Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?
Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself;
This for my soul, and this other for my body?"
All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.
He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.
The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.
And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.
The freest song comes not through bars and wires.
And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.
Your daily life is your temple and your religion.
Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.
Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute,
The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.
For in revery you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.
And take with you all men:
For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.
And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.
Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.
You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees.

I have long suspected that "authoritarians", who generally do not like Gibran, are really just playing lip service to religion. They do not actually live their humility. They adopt the "authoritarian" position on doctrine because it feeds the egotistical side of their nature. And to them religion is just a way to clobber others over the head with Scripture, the Quran, the Gospel... and to place themselves on the same level as God.

 

[noguru]

Sorry for the confusion.

So Dialogos believes the Bible to be inerrant, yet also believes his understanding of it is also inerrant?

Too arrogant for me. He needs to know he is just like everyone else in that regard: finite minds trying to grasp the infinite.

"Authoritarians" tend to only give lip service to humility, rather than actually live it. Then they try to divert attention from their lack of humility, by returning to their opinion of the Bible and trying to redefine humility based on their opinion of the Bible.

Humility is simple. It is listening to others and sincerely considering where one might be wrong. But "authoritarians" are usually blind sided by their own ego. Hence they would prefer to silence any dissenters. And are really not friends to "academic freedom" in anything.

Their lack of humility is a double edged sword, however. Because with the false sense of power it provides, it also produces a lack of awareness.

 

[aikido7]

"Authoritarians" tend to only give lip service to humility, rather than actually live it. Then they try to divert attention from their lack of humility, by returning to their opinion of the Bible and redefining humility based on their opinion of the Bible.

Humility is simple. It is listening to others and sincerely considering where one might be wrong. But "authoritarians" are usually blind sided by their own ego. Hence they would prefer to silence any dissenters.

It's really sad. And a bit alarming, in my view.

Mark Noll, a well-known evangelical, once wrote this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Scandal-Evang...pebp=1433893458408&perid=1JFCXJJ1X9DFB2CETV1H

Here is another book by another author. I am not familiar with this author's faith claims (if any) and I have not read it, either. But here's a link:



http://www.amazon.com/Scandal-Evang...pebp=1433893550772&perid=1JFCXJJ1X9DFB2CETV1H

 

[noguru]

It's really sad. And a bit alarming, in my view.

Mark Noll, a well-known evangelical, once wrote this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Scandal-Evang...pebp=1433893458408&perid=1JFCXJJ1X9DFB2CETV1H

Here is another book by another author. I am not familiar with this author's faith claims (if any) and I have not read it, either. But here's a link:



http://www.amazon.com/Scandal-Evang...pebp=1433893550772&perid=1JFCXJJ1X9DFB2CETV1H

I have atheist friends with more humility than most of the "evangelicals" that come to this site. That is truly sad, and it consistently reminds of the parable of the good Samaritan. I do not need a book to highlight what I have seen in my 50 years on this planet. I am glad someone has published a book on that exact subject. Though many of the MADists and other Biblical revisionists on this site will probably find a way to avoid that clear reality also.

 

[aikido7]

I have atheist friends with more humility than most of the "evangelicals" that come to this site. That is truly sad, and it consistently reminds of the parable of the good Samaritan. I do not need a book to highlight what I have seen in my 50 years on this planet. I am glad someone has published a book on that exact subject. Though many of the MADists and other Biblical revisionists on this site will probably find a way to avoid that clear reality also.

I think all of us tend to ignore or reject what we find is frightening or in conflict with our own notions.
I don't believe this means we can comfortably get rude and immature about it, though.

 

[6days]

I have to make my own judgments and cherry-pick my way through God's immense (infinite) cherry orchard. In truth, I am condemned to do so. That's what makes a human life, in my view.

What a foolish worldview where you determine your own truth and judge your Creator. Its like Pilate being wimpy before Jesus asking 'What is truth?'

Romans 1 applies.....
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man"


God's Word does contain absolute truth...For ex.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” John 14:6.

and

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12

 

[noguru]

I think all of us tend to ignore or reject what we find is frightening or in conflict with our own notions.
I don't believe this means we can comfortably get rude and immature about it, though.

Aye, it takes courage to face reality squarely. Knowledge is both wonderful and terrifying. Some let the fear stop them from experiencing the wonder. I realize I would be cheating myself should I choose a less courageous path.

One man's rudeness is another man's honesty. I think it rude when a coward tries to force their cowardice on others. But they somehow get a free pass, because they can also claim ignorance and compound the problem through indifference. Many use willful ignorance coupled with indifference as a strategy of argument. For those folks rudeness and immaturity seems to be all they can understand.

 

[noguru]

What a foolish worldview where you determine your own truth and judge your Creator. Its like Pilate being wimpy before Jesus asking 'What is truth?'

Romans 1 applies.....
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man"


God's Word does contain absolute truth...For ex.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” John 14:6.

and

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12

Who determines what you think is truth for you?

Oh that's right when you accepted Jesus and confessed your sins, the Holy Spirit began to possess you. And now you have a direct communication line to the absolute truths of the universe. And you have absolutely no doubt about these "truths".

:rotfl:

 

[aikido7]

What a foolish worldview where you determine your own truth and judge your Creator. Its like Pilate being wimpy before Jesus asking 'What is truth?'

Romans 1 applies.....
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man"


God's Word does contain absolute truth...For ex.

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” John 14:6.

and

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" Acts 4:12

I understand that you are saying that I myself am wimpy because Pilate was.

Pilate was anything but wimpy. He was so cruel to the Jews and in his other tasks to protect the empire that he was summarily dismissed from Judea.

As human history demonstrates, the question "What is truth" is well worth asking. It is almost the question of our existence as human beings.

Where do you see your truth? In the Roman or the American empire? In Caesar's kingdom? Or in the Kingdom of God as Jesus tells us?

As far as "no one" coming to salvation without Jesus is like saying no one can reach transformation in this life without following the same actions and words that Jesus has spoken for our own religion. The bitter irony is that I have seen atheists and agnostics who are unwittingly aiding God in bringing Jesus' kingdom on earth. They are followers of Jesus but they don't realize it.

I have seen more than a "thousand points of light" around the world in this time and place than I ever expected.

There are some around that seem to be taking Jesus seriously.

 

[aikido7]

Aye, it takes courage to face reality squarely. Knowledge is both wonderful and terrifying. Some let the fear stop them from experiencing the wonder. I realize I would be cheating myself should I choose a less courageous path.

One man's rudeness is another man's honesty. I think it rude when a coward tries to force their cowardice on others. But they somehow get a free pass, because they can also claim ignorance and compound the problem through indifference. Many use willful ignorance coupled with indifference as a strategy of argument. For those folks rudeness and immaturity seems to be all they can understand.

A lot of the unhappiness, name-calling and cruelty from us comes from the way we were raised. It is a rare person who was paid focused attention by their parents. Parents are usually so busy struggling with their own childhood issues that it is hard to be fully present in front of the innocent, guileless child.

Many Christian families are obedience-based and authoritarian and believe that treating kids like nobodies or hitting them is part of being a parent.

This is exactly why Jesus made such savage attacks on the family values of his day.

 

[meshak]

Who determines what you think is truth for you?

Jesus' followers wisdom comes from reading the Bible, especially reading Jesus' word.

Unfortunately that is not what is going on in the most Christian community.

 

[meshak]

Aikido,

You are so politically correct Christian.