What is the Gospel?

[Nihilo]

Doesn't appear to be?

Right. Whether or not 1st Corinthians 15:3-8 (KJV) was preached to unbelievers (those who don't believe the Lord Jesus Christ is risen), isn't thread relevant, in the thread titled "What is the Gospel?" Yes or no, how does it address the thread titled "What is the Gospel?"

 

[Sonnet]

Right. Whether or not 1st Corinthians 15:3-8 (KJV) was preached to unbelievers (those who don't believe the Lord Jesus Christ is risen), isn't thread relevant, in the thread titled "What is the Gospel?" Yes or no, how does it address the thread titled "What is the Gospel?"

It's relevant because Paul says it is the Gospel (along, of course, with verses 4ff) but some Christians won't preach it indiscriminately - thus the Gospel becomes obscured. Paul even says it's the Gospel he preached 'on which you have taken your stand'. It's a reminder of what was said and what is now preached.

 

[Nihilo]

It's relevant because Paul says it is the Gospel (along, of course, with verses 4ff) but some Christians won't preach it indiscriminately - thus the Gospel becomes obscured. Paul even says it's the Gospel he preached 'on which you have taken your stand'. It's a reminder of what was said and what is now preached.

Romans 10:9 (KJV):

Spoiler

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1st Corinthians 15:3-17 (KJV):

Spoiler

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Paul makes an extraordinarily big deal about the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen. He made a bigger deal that He is risen, than about anything else, IMO.

I think this is thread relevant.

 

[Sonnet]

#425 remains unchallenged.

Was the offer to heal the Israelites who were dying from snake bites a genuine one? Was anyone excluded?

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

Jesus says that his crucifixion is analogous to this OT incident - that those who look (in belief) will receive eternal life.

Crucially, within the scope of Jesus's analogy, the bronze serpent was raised for all those infected; all without exception.

 

[Sonnet]

See also:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114680-What-are-the-basics-of-Reformed-Theology&p=4659625&viewfull=1#post4659625

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4660784&viewfull=1#post4660784

AMR

There is no suggestion that Paul is addressing the Corinthians as if they were unsaved.

v.12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

The distinction Paul makes between the mature and the unbeliever (whom he 'resolved to know nothing but Him crucified') is very clear. You are shoehorning the unsaved into Paul's discussion of a message for the mature without warrant.

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Jesus emphatically draws a parallel with the bronze serpent lifted up in Moses time for ALL those infected by the snakes. Your argument makes Jesus's offer as anything but genuine.

 

[Sonnet]

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);

Not sure there are many that would deny this.

- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);

And Jesus affirms all are provided for - John 3:14-16.

- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);

Surely, turning and looking to Jesus is not, per se, an example of righteousness - Romans 4:1-5

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Note, Abraham did not work for - but was CREDITED with righteousness.

- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);

Paul immediately follows his quotation of Psalm 14 with an appeal to faith in contradistinction to works of the law which is the context of the former.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Same point above.

- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14);

See other post.

 

[intojoy]

Would you (briefly) define the difference please?

I’ll try


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[Nihilo]

What would stop a person from believing that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen, if they wanted to believe it?

I can't think of how God could stop that person, once they wanted to believe it.

He could only stop them by making it so that they didn't want to believe that He is risen in the first place.

What does Calvinism or Arminianism or Catholicism say about that?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Sonnet,

On the discussion that is occuring with [MENTION=15326]intojoy[/MENTION]... The Slavic shift from the Jews who are to say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”... Vs. the Gentiles, via Paul... who preach the DBR, Grace message... is a direct Segway into Dispensationalism.

I’m a Dispensationalist... but my salvation doesn’t depend on that Ism.

This is why I liked IJ’s post when he asserted that The Cross isn’t the sole Slavic message... I also avoided exposition of the matter... because Dispensationalism and Calvinism... stand diametrically apposed... due to their different interpretations of what elect means in scripture.

These two factions are not necessary to understand the simplicity of the Gospel. I indeed am looking to speak towards unity in this thread...

But... I look forward to IJ’s Response.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

What would stop a person from believing that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen, if they wanted to believe it?

I can't think of how God could stop that person, once they wanted to believe it.

He could only stop them by making it so that they didn't want to believe that He is risen in the first place.

What does Calvinism or Arminianism or Catholicism say about that?

To be blunt... “Orthodox Stances”

Calvinism... God’s Will
Armenianism... Satan and Human Choice
Catholicism... God’s Will, Satan, Human Choice, Carnal Debauchery

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

There is no suggestion that Paul is addressing the Corinthians as if they were unsaved.

v.12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

The distinction Paul makes between the mature and the unbeliever (whom he 'resolved to know nothing but Him crucified') is very clear. You are shoehorning the unsaved into Paul's discussion of a message for the mature without warrant.

...

Jesus emphatically draws a parallel with the bronze serpent lifted up in Moses time for ALL those infected by the snakes. Your argument makes Jesus's offer as anything but genuine.

One wonders why you bother to ask any questions. You have it all figured out. Go in peace, then.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

See other post.

Ditto (see here). :AMR:

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

What would stop a person from believing that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen, if they wanted to believe it?

Nothing.

Those who genuinely want to believe have been first made so wanting to believe by the quickening of the Holy Spirit, the regeneration of the spiritually dead person to life (Eze. 36:26).

Let me be as plain as I can be:

No person will call upon the name of the Lord until God first efficaciously acts upon that person. Given that God is the one performing the action here, nothing that can prevent said person so acted upon by God from believing. In fact, said person so acted upon by God will not not believe.

AMR

 

[Danoh]

There is no suggestion that Paul is addressing the Corinthians as if they were unsaved.

v.12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

The distinction Paul makes between the mature and the unbeliever (whom he 'resolved to know nothing but Him crucified') is very clear. You are shoehorning the unsaved into Paul's discussion of a message for the mature without warrant...

You've read past that again.

Consider the following...

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

In the KJV, both uses of the word "spirit" are in the lower case in that passage with good reason.

Because Paul is contrasting outlooks - the world's outlook, mind, or spirit on a thing, and the Spirit's outlook, mind, or spirit on a thing.

And he is also referring to his mind or spirit having had revealed to it The Spirit's mind, or spirit on a thing by the Spirit.

He is not referring to the Corinthians as Believers, rather; to himself.

Where am I getting this from?

From some supposed "Lord spoke to my spirit...?"

Yes, but only in the sense that He now does so through said Word on things that Paul is asserting there was given to his spirit or mind, to speak or write about.

The Apostles were unique in that.

We are not.

All we have is the Scripture that process in them, resulted in.

Or as Peter put that, near the very end of his God-inspired witness...

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Anyway, all this remains ever fascinating

 

[intojoy]

Sonnet,

On the discussion that is occuring with [MENTION=15326]intojoy[/MENTION]... The Slavic shift from the Jews who are to say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”... Vs. the Gentiles, via Paul... who preach the DBR, Grace message... is a direct Segway into Dispensationalism.

I’m a Dispensationalist... but my salvation doesn’t depend on that Ism.

This is why I liked IJ’s post when he asserted that The Cross isn’t the sole Slavic message... I also avoided exposition of the matter... because Dispensationalism and Calvinism... stand diametrically apposed... due to their different interpretations of what elect means in scripture.

These two factions are not necessary to understand the simplicity of the Gospel. I indeed am looking to speak towards unity in this thread...

But... I look forward to IJ’s Response.

I did not say that.

The only salvation message is the preaching of the cross.

What I said was that the cross is not the only saving instrumentality. There is the election and enabling of the elect that are components to salvation.

When I get some time I’ll condense an outline of the kingdom of God program.

Thx


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[Nihilo]

To be blunt... “Orthodox Stances”

Calvinism... God’s Will
Armenianism... Satan and Human Choice
Catholicism... God’s Will, Satan, Human Choice, Carnal Debauchery

But I don't understand how any of these would stop someone who wanted to believe that the Lord Jesus is risen, from believing it.

 

[George Affleck]

Jesus emphatically draws a parallel with the bronze serpent lifted up in Moses time for ALL those infected by the snakes. Your argument makes Jesus's offer as anything but genuine.

John 3:14-15KJV is not an offer of salvation. It is a statement of fact as is John 3:16KJV.

Those who belong to Jesus will believe and those who believe will not perish.

 

[Sonnet]

John 3:14-15KJV is not an offer of salvation. It is a statement of fact as is John 3:16KJV.

Those who belong to Jesus will believe and those who believe will not perish.

The analogy Jesus chose was that of a genuine offer to the infected and dying Israelites to be healed. It's an offer because it can be refused; action is required - that of looking.

You gave no justification for your assertion.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus emphatically draws a parallel with the bronze serpent lifted up in Moses time for ALL those infected by the snakes. Your argument makes Jesus's offer as anything but genuine.

Yep, and those who looked lived. It was a choice.

 

[Sonnet]

But I don't understand how any of these would stop someone who wanted to believe that the Lord Jesus is risen, from believing it.

Under Calvinism, inherited total depravity means no one is able to respond to God and He only chooses certain individuals to regenerate so that they can. Those passed by have no access to eternal life. Calvinists would cite Esau is such an individual.