What is the Gospel?

[glorydaz]

Sorry GD, it's not about believers; it's about God. You can't see it; you believe God is not good.

I reminded you and you said that it was silly, not worth responding to. Why?



Right, the part about God being good.

You really wonder why I say your claims are not worth responding to?

If you want to accuse me of something, at least make it something believable.:kookoo:

 

[Sonnet]

I'm not sure how God's judgment on the people of Babel is any more of a restriction of freewill than anything else God might do with man. Like create him, for instance. Or give him the ability to speak. Or put him in a garden. Or kick him out of a garden. Or tell him what He expects of him. Or do something about it (punish) when he doesn't do what He expects of him.

If God can't alter their languages, then God can't do anything at all. Such removes God's free will, even to remove sin from His presence.

My point was merely that without a significant degree of God's creation acting through genuine choice then His creation becomes worthless.

 

[Sonnet]

Could be. But it seems like you are saying the spreading cause the language confusion, rather than the language confusion causing the spreading. The Gen 11 story is pretty clear which came first.

You may be right but I don't see it as explicit.

 

[Sonnet]

The debate is a good one. I hope the thread has been informative. It has given me a chance to think through some things. I hope others have been thinking through this as well. Christians can easily mistake their personal assurance for correctness, but it isn't the best thing for us--we need correcting from time to time.

I think we can cause others to stumble with our disunity, and we can cause others to stumble when we don't follow God's word. Disunity in things that are wrong must be encouraged! Imagine if one church decided that murder was ok, and began to preach it. How long should the other churches sit by silently?

At the same time, I feel like you are using the disagreement as an excuse not to believe what you read in scripture. That excuse won't hold for long when you face your Creator.

I might be using it as an excuse. I fail.

What is the point of me saying I believe when I could be wrong? - when doubts persist? I believe in part but that's not enough.

I think I mentioned the Christian I once spoke to who said she 'didn't believe in the OT'.
What does one make of such a statement? Does anyone believe 100% in every detail?

 

[blackbirdking]

Therefore Jesus is God. The warning wasn't to you, it was about you. We have a number of Unitarians on TOL so tend to keep track. TOL has more than its fair share.

Ok, I get it now; strange how it appeared that way, not only to you. An assumption that doesn't hold up; you're assuming that since I said Jesus doesn't forgive sins, it must follow that He's not God. If that's how you figured, I understand how you can be a Calvinist.

Did God the Father die on the cross? Did God the Father make atonement for sin? Who is the great high priest who has passed through the heavens; God the Father? Who is at the right hand of the Father; the Father?

A High Priest does not forgive; Jesus the Son of God does not forgive sins as High Priest. If you believe Jesus is one and the same as God, you're wrong. While Jesus was on the cross as the Son of God, He prayed to God the Father for the forgiveness of others. He might have forgiven them Himself, but He didn't; why?

If I'm right in what you assumed, your assumption is wrong.

Jesus is God, but He is more than that; Jesus learned some things that God didn't know. Does that fit your theology?

 

[Sonnet]

How can there be any doubt that what Paul received (Galatians 1:11-12) he passed on to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

What was passed on was a message delivered to unbelieving Corinthians - Acts 18.

 

[Sonnet]

The real travesty is that God ordained that men would be damned for His glory. Ah yes, "It doesn't matter in the long and short". And that is the final resting place of Calvinism; nothing really matters anyways, what will be, will be. Who Christ died for is really irrelevant, it doesn't matter; well said.

To say "It doesn't matter in the long and short." is simply a cop out.

'Some' versus 'all' is a direct reflection of the character of God; and, it does matter what a man believes about God.

I agree. Some might not believe because of this very reason.

 

[Sonnet]

How can there be any doubt that what Paul received (Galatians 1:11-12) he passed on to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

What was passed on was a message delivered to unbelieving Corinthians - Acts 18.

Paul does not guard against simply reading his words as is. If telling unbelievers that 'Christ died for our sins' was/is such a taboo then Paul would have spent ink saying so.

 

[glorydaz]

'Some' versus 'all' is a direct reflection of the character of God; and, it does matter what a man believes about God.

Then you are forced to contradict yourself, aren't you?

Of course it matters what a man believes about God. God has decreed that man is justified, therefore saved, by faith in the blood. Not just by the shedding of blood, but by man's faith in the blood. From God's point of view, peace is declared. But, in order for the blood to be effectual, it must be accessed by faith (when we believe). Romans 5:2

It is not a matter of whether any body ever believes or if no body ever believes; it's about what God has already accomplished. The atonement for every man is either a reality now, due to what Christ has already accomplished, or it will never be so. It's either done, or it's not; Christ will never die again.

You're trying to claim God accomplished salvation for all men. He could have, but He didn't want men who didn't come willingly. He shed His blood so man could freely come before the throne of Grace. He doesn't force anyone to partake of the sacrifice He made.

To say that some will never be able to come to God, because that God ordained such, is to say something about the character of God. That's a man's own business to believe such, if he chooses, but then the implications of that belief cannot be denied.

It certainly isn't Good News, but man's ability isn't a part of the Gospel, remember? God says those with faith in the blood are justified.

God is good, always.

Depends on which side you're on.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,​

The blank implies 'not, for all men'.
So what did the death of Jesus do for some men?

For those who refuse to be reconciled, it did nothing. They will die in their sins.

For those who are reconciled, they are given the gift of eternal life.

You believe that Jesus only died for some, I have no qualms with that, as long as you admit it and follow where it takes you.

Most men won't admit it.

Most men do admit it. They just don't phrase it exactly like you want. They don't even phrase it like others do. The provision is made by the shedding of the blood, but not all take advantage of that provision. I've seen this same thing repeated in several different ways, and you're still acting like you don't like it.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul does not guard against simply reading his words as is. If telling unbelievers that 'Christ died for our sins' was/is such a taboo then Paul would have spent ink saying so.

TABOO? Oh, the drama. :chuckle:

It's a matter of who Paul is talking to in that particular passage. Context is everything. Do you want to insist that these passages are referring to unbelievers as well? Get a grip on yourself, Sonnet. The dumb act is getting old.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

See the "our" words in this text. Look at the context.

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.​

 

[Sonnet]

TABOO? Oh, the drama. :chuckle:

It's a matter of who Paul is talking to in that particular passage. Context is everything. Do you want to insist that these passages are referring to unbelievers as well? Get a grip on yourself, Sonnet. The dumb act is getting old.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

See the "our" words in this text. Look at the context.

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.​

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,

For some reason you are spending much time restricting what was preached to believers only. Paul preached to unbelieving Corinthians. Paul is not the least bit concerned worrying about clarifying as you are. The interpretation I make is one that Paul allows.

 

[Sonnet]

TABOO? Oh, the drama. :chuckle:

It is a taboo amongst Calvinists - we have seen such on this thread where it was described as 'an abomination'.

 

[Sonnet]

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

See the "our" words in this text. Look at the context.

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.​

Can letters addressed to specific persons make references to those other than the addressees? Paul addresses his letter to believers at Corinth and discusses what he preached to them when he came to them...when they were unbelievers.

Why are you placing a restriction on that which Paul did not? 'Thus we preach,' Paul said but you won't - at least not the first bit.

 

[Sonnet]

TABOO? Oh, the drama. :chuckle:

It's a matter of who Paul is talking to in that particular passage. Context is everything. Do you want to insist that these passages are referring to unbelievers as well? Get a grip on yourself, Sonnet. The dumb act is getting old.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

See the "our" words in this text. Look at the context.

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.​

To whom are these words of Paul addressed to?

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[PipEE.Long.Socking]

https://youtu.be/S9z5aWAQQ34

 

[musterion]

Well look who it is.

 

[PipEE.Long.Socking]

Context lost without sock post... lol

 

[PipEE.Long.Socking]

Glorydaz and Lon ... your arguments are non sequitur nonsense...

All one has to do is read anything Glorydaz has written on OP topic and the slippery shifting of All meaning all. Each and every counter from [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] remains non sequitur and mostly ad hominem hostility that is typically rooted in inflammatory speech that is void of bannable speech, but is full of negative response towards intended post target that is as cutting and cynical as if she had used all banned curse verbiage... in other words... the heart behind the words is hard and recalcitrant to the damage she is doing.

Lon ... remains fully non sequitur in the fashion that his responses are written intelligently, but remain fully circular in a way that is designed to perpetually defend 4 Point Calvinism... that Glorydaz has now adopted in Theology... and Lon adopts... as well.

AMR Ask Mr Religion remains a cloaked 5 Point Calvinist That ultimately supports the “F**k the rest” mentality. The give away Word was indeed “abomination”. Verbiage gets expounded... but the ultimate heart behind the words gets revealed in a defense of a 1 Cor. 13 addendum of sorts that removes the Hope and Love from the revealed character of God...

 

[PipEE.Long.Socking]

Lon... I found a list of God’s that give up on humanity and resist the implications of 1 Corinthians 13 and 1 John 4:8

Amon, the chief god of Egypt See also Jer 46:25
Asherah, a Canaanite goddess Ex 34:13-14 Asherah was the consort of El, the chief Canaanite god. Wooden poles, perhaps carved in her image, were often set up in her honour and placed near other pagan objects of worship. See also Dt 7:5; Jdg 6:25-30 Gideon destroys an Asherah pole; 1Ki 14:15,23; 1Ki 15:13; 1Ki 16:33; 1Ki 18:19 Elijah summons 400 prophets of Asherah to Mount Carmel. King Josiah’s reforms: 2Ki 23:4-7,13-16
Isa 27:9; Jer 17:2; Mic 5:14
Ashtoreth, a goddess of war and fertility Jdg 2:12-13 Ashtoreth, the consort of Baal, was associated with the evening star and was worshipped as Ishtar in Babylon and as Athtart in Aram. To the Greeks she was Astarte or Aphrodite and to the Romans, Venus. See also Jdg 10:6; 1Sa 7:3-4; 1Sa 12:10; 1Sa 31:10; 1Ki 11:5,33
Baal, a Canaanite and Phoenician god of fertility and rain Jdg 2:10-13 Baal, meaning “lord”, was pictured standing on a bull, a popular symbol of fertility and strength. Baal was associated with Asherah and Ashtoreth, goddesses of fertility.
Baal-Zebub, a popular deity of the Philistines Mt 12:24 pp Mk 3:22 pp Lk 11:15 Beelzebub is the Greek form of the Hebrew name “Baal-Zebub”, meaning “lord of the flies”. See also 2Ki 1:1-6,16-17
Bel, the chief deity of Babylon Isa 46:1 Bel was another name for the sun god, Marduk. Nebo, the god of learning and writing was the son of Marduk. See also Jer 50:2; Jer 51:44
Chemosh, the chief god of Moab 1Ki 11:7 See also Nu 21:29; 1Ki 11:33; 2Ki 23:13; Jer 48:7,13,46
Dagon, worshipped in Babylonia and Philistia Jdg 16:23 See also 1Sa 5:2-7; 1Ch 10:10
Molech, the chief deity of Ammon 1Ki 11:4-5 See also Lev 18:21 The practice of sacrificing children to Molech was common in Phoenicia and the region; Lev 20:2-5; 1Ki 11:7,33; 2Ki 23:10 Josiah destroyed the area where the altars for child sacrifice were located; 2Ki 23:13; Isa 57:9; Jer 32:35; Jer 49:1,3; Zep 1:5; Ac 7:43
Tammuz, a Babylonian fertility god Eze 8:14
The worship of false gods was a snare to God’s people
Their worship included disgusting rites 1Ki 14:23-24; 1Ki 19:18; Jer 7:31; Hos 13:2
Numerous attempts were made to stop the worship of Baal and other false gods Jdg 6:28-32; 1Ki 18:17-40 See also 2Ki 10:18-28; 2Ki 11:18; 2Ki 23:4-5,13
Attempts to stop false worship proved unsuccessful 2Ki 21:3 The word “Baal” was not orginally a proper name but came to be used as such. See also 2Ch 28:1-4; Hos 13:1-2
Warnings against and condemnation of, the worship of false gods
Ps 40:4; Da 3:29 Nebuchadnezzar came to realise the foolishness of worshipping false gods See also Ps 4:2; Jer 13:25; Jer 16:19; Am 2:4; Zep 1:4
The first Christians were confronted with the worship of Greek and Roman deities
Zeus and Hermes Ac 14:12 Zeus was the patron god of the city of Lystra and his temple was there. Paul was identified as the god Hermes (the Roman Mercury), Zeus’attendant and spokesman.
Artemis Ac 19:24-28 Artemis was the Greek name for the Roman goddess, Diana.
Castor and Pollux See also Ac 28:11 the two “sons of Zeus”, regarded as the guardian deities of sailors
Attempts to deify human beings
Ac 12:21-22; Ac 14:12-15; Ac 28:6

Which one of these God’s would self sacrifice for even their enemies?

Which one of these God’s Loved their enemies?

Your sophistry veil is thin and without need to be addressed... line by line...

TULIP is a dead flower and a tool of Satan. This thread makes it clear. I love you and claim you as my brother in Him...

But Lon... Jesus died for all and my previous post remains uncontested by a single rebuttal you threw together here...

Luke 12:51 is what I was quoting... and it binds to your “sword” scripture... shall you now think I was misquoting?

No! You’re either going to attempt to demonize my words... point out my reference to the “f**k” the rest mentality ... which the very idea of “Jesus didn’t die for all” directly insinuates... (you are leaning on legalistic accusations of my now colloquial language that is easily understood without rebuttal) or attempt to claim I’m misquoting scripture...

But those little lies are apparent..

Do I crawl in bed with Satan to support unity with all? How far do I compromise Jesus’ red letters to get along?

He is for ALL... and you have now whipped up a following of 4 Point Calvinism with a very misguided scrapper... but Lon... All means all and I articulated it Clear.

Not all accept... Him... His radical Love ... and not all relinquish internal hypocrisy... but Lon... His gesture of Love is scripturally Clear as to ALL...

Lon ... Your sophistry is not befitting of your genuine Love for Him...

 

[PipEE.Long.Socking]

Sigh... Good enough...

That should give sufficient cause to perma ban EE... and anything from my IP...

Sonnet and Blackbirdking remain indefensibley correct and quite appreciated from the perspective of Honesty that doesn’t flinch.....