Why didn't the Savior die for sin?
What is the express image of God?
- Thread starter keypurr
- Start date
Why didn't the Savior die for sin?
Hi keypurrl Thanks for speaking to me.
You said:
I know you disagree with me ... but I ask you to consider the definitions of image. Most if not all of them deal with something that can be seen - not with spirit that is invisible. The whole key to you and I agreeing about things is that you deny that God had created an image which he used to appear in this world. It has always amazed me, that with the plethora of scripture that plainly says that people saw God, that you steadfastly continue to deny that God established a way.
You said:
Yes, the spirit of God, who moved upon the waters, is invisible and God was referred to by the name Elohiym at that time in Genesis one... BUT the whole game changed in Genesis 2 when the Spirit of God stopped his invisible creativity and his name was changed from Elohiym to LORD - (YHWH, Yewah). The invisible ONE God stopped working and rested as an invisible spirit and began working as he appeared as a visible entity... called LORD in KJV.
You said:
God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11 (my info inside (...)
I(God/Elohiym), even I am LORD (God as a visible Emmanuel), beside ME (as God the invisible spirit and LORD the visible Emmanuel) there is no Savior.
God came as his own son ...appearing with his personal image. This is why Jesus said something like this: You call me Master and LORD and rightly so ... but why call me Lord and not do the things I say?
The Father is not the son, the son is not the Father. God did not come to us, he sent his son Christ. Only Christ, the express image of the Father, came down from heaven to teach us about his God.
You requested:
One of my favorite passages Keypurr, but I will add 4 and 5 to my response.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
Now the same verses with my interpretations within (...). Remember when I use the name of LORD ... I am insinuating that the LORD was God seen with his visible bodily image. Also Emmanuel means God among us.
3 and this is life eternal, that they (people) might know you (LORD Father) the only God and Jesus Christ (the begotten Savior), whom you have sent.
4 I (the Savior known as Emmanuel) have glorified you (LORD Father) on the earth (in the sight of men's eyes): I have finished the work which you gave me to do.
5 And now, O (LORD) Father, (I request that) you glorify me with your own self with the (visible) glory (of your presence) which I had (shared) with you before the world was (created.)
And God, who sits in his glory in heavenly realms did just that for God the Son after he ascended into heaven. Jesus now received the same glory that the Father bore and they sit side by side on thrones.
I hope you also noticed that Jesus said he had shared the glorious presence with the Father before the world was... this means that the Father Emmanuel could have said something like this to people who saw him: When you have seen me, you have seen a pre-incarnate image of my son that will one day appear in my image in flesh.
Jesus, being God the Savior and Lord was able to proclaim this same sort of thing to people who saw him: When you have seen me you have seen the Father. When you have seen me you have seen the one who sent me. The Father and I are ONE. The Father is in me and I in him.
Just how much more one can two individuals be? And they even shared the same bodily image ... except the Father's super-natural presence preceded the Son's manifestation on earth in flesh.
You said:
I know you disagree with me ... but I ask you to consider the definitions of image. Most if not all of them deal with something that can be seen - not with spirit that is invisible. The whole key to you and I agreeing about things is that you deny that God had created an image which he used to appear in this world. It has always amazed me, that with the plethora of scripture that plainly says that people saw God, that you steadfastly continue to deny that God established a way.
You said:
Yes, the spirit of God, who moved upon the waters, is invisible and God was referred to by the name Elohiym at that time in Genesis one... BUT the whole game changed in Genesis 2 when the Spirit of God stopped his invisible creativity and his name was changed from Elohiym to LORD - (YHWH, Yewah). The invisible ONE God stopped working and rested as an invisible spirit and began working as he appeared as a visible entity... called LORD in KJV.
You said:
God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11 (my info inside (...)
I(God/Elohiym), even I am LORD (God as a visible Emmanuel), beside ME (as God the invisible spirit and LORD the visible Emmanuel) there is no Savior.
God came as his own son ...appearing with his personal image. This is why Jesus said something like this: You call me Master and LORD and rightly so ... but why call me Lord and not do the things I say?
The Father is not the son, the son is not the Father. God did not come to us, he sent his son Christ. Only Christ, the express image of the Father, came down from heaven to teach us about his God.
You requested:
One of my favorite passages Keypurr, but I will add 4 and 5 to my response.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
Now the same verses with my interpretations within (...). Remember when I use the name of LORD ... I am insinuating that the LORD was God seen with his visible bodily image. Also Emmanuel means God among us.
3 and this is life eternal, that they (people) might know you (LORD Father) the only God and Jesus Christ (the begotten Savior), whom you have sent.
4 I (the Savior known as Emmanuel) have glorified you (LORD Father) on the earth (in the sight of men's eyes): I have finished the work which you gave me to do.
5 And now, O (LORD) Father, (I request that) you glorify me with your own self with the (visible) glory (of your presence) which I had (shared) with you before the world was (created.)
And God, who sits in his glory in heavenly realms did just that for God the Son after he ascended into heaven. Jesus now received the same glory that the Father bore and they sit side by side on thrones.
I hope you also noticed that Jesus said he had shared the glorious presence with the Father before the world was... this means that the Father Emmanuel could have said something like this to people who saw him: When you have seen me, you have seen a pre-incarnate image of my son that will one day appear in my image in flesh.
Jesus, being God the Savior and Lord was able to proclaim this same sort of thing to people who saw him: When you have seen me you have seen the Father. When you have seen me you have seen the one who sent me. The Father and I are ONE. The Father is in me and I in him.
Just how much more one can two individuals be? And they even shared the same bodily image ... except the Father's super-natural presence preceded the Son's manifestation on earth in flesh.
If you study the context in Colossians 1:15 and consider outlining the sentence ... you will find that it was the image that was the firstborn of all creature within creation.
Jesus bore the image that God created first ... even before he created the angelic realm and Adam. God had his image FIRST.
The King of Righteousness was without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. (Hebrews 7:3 NKJV)
Thanks for speaking to me:
Yes ... Jesus had no Father or mother and is without genealogy ... neither having a beginning of days or end of life (IOW eternal)... that is because Lord Jesus the Savior was God and LORD just like God originally explained and had Isaiah record for posterity.
Isaiah 43:11
I (the ONE God), even I, Am the LORD, beside ME (being the ONE God and LORD) there is no Savior.
If you proclaim Jesus as your Savior then this is what expects you to believe - The Savior was HIM!
Now, a key to knowing they WAY God accomplished this is to understand the identity of the LORD.
I have done much study and found that the LORD is the name of the invisible God's personal image that He used to appear within the world.
The Father was called LORD ... and the Son said it was correct for people to call him Master and Lord. That is because Jesus was Master and Lord. That is why they identified him as Emmanuel (God among men).
God who appeared as LORD before the Savior was manifested in flesh had a super-natural presence. God chose to come into the world as Emmanuel through the natural doorway called the womb of woman. Through this process the Super-natural LORD God the Father took on the presence of a natural begotten Son of flesh.
John 1:18 says that:
No man at anytime hath seen God, the only begotten Son, that is in the Father's bosom (by the time the statement was recorded); he (John the Baptist) declared him(who was God the Son to people).
They had seen God the Father as LORD ... but seeing God as the begotten lordly Son was a new thing under the sun.
This all came about because the image of God was the first born of all creatures (IOW, the first living created creature).
God used a created living body to represent his invisible nature... in the same way that God gave Adam a living body to represent the invisible male-female nature of inner mankind.
How wonderful that God decided to use His own image and likeness to give mankind an appearance. I'm guessing that God, who had a plan before he created mankind, had in mind that he wanted his saved eternal children to look like him.
Jamie,
BTW ... Yes Hebrews 7:3 can apply to Jesus because other scripture makes this connection.
However Hebrews 7:3 is followed by Hebrews 7:4 and still talking about this person that is associated with Jesus.
3
Now consider how great this man was (in OT it was Melchezedak ... in the NT it was Jesus), unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils (after the battle he joined to save Lot).
Now, consider: Did Abraham see Melchezedak? I say yes ... I say that this was a pre-incarnate representation of Jesus as the risen and glorified eternal high priest.
Now what does pre-incarnate mean to me? It means that the presence that Abraham saw was a super-natural presence of God's created image... and when people saw the Father they saw the image of God before God appeared with his image manifested in flesh.
As I mentioned to Keypurr above Jesus said that he shared "the glory" with the Father before the world was even formed.
Now, I've done an extensive study of what is meant by "the glory." It refers to God when he appeared among men.
BTW ... Yes Hebrews 7:3 can apply to Jesus because other scripture makes this connection.
However Hebrews 7:3 is followed by Hebrews 7:4 and still talking about this person that is associated with Jesus.
3
Now consider how great this man was (in OT it was Melchezedak ... in the NT it was Jesus), unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils (after the battle he joined to save Lot).
Now, consider: Did Abraham see Melchezedak? I say yes ... I say that this was a pre-incarnate representation of Jesus as the risen and glorified eternal high priest.
Now what does pre-incarnate mean to me? It means that the presence that Abraham saw was a super-natural presence of God's created image... and when people saw the Father they saw the image of God before God appeared with his image manifested in flesh.
As I mentioned to Keypurr above Jesus said that he shared "the glory" with the Father before the world was even formed.
Now, I've done an extensive study of what is meant by "the glory." It refers to God when he appeared among men.
Another excellent statement Keypurr. Young's Literal Bible reveals a secret concerning Shiloh, (the Dove) in the opening account from creation:
Genesis 1:2 YLT
2. the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
The word rendered "fluttering" in the above actually means "to brood" as well as to flutter, like a mother hen over her own brood of chicks, (again there is neither male nor female in Messiah).
Original Strong's Ref. #7363
Romanized rachaph
Pronounced raw-khaf'
a primitive root; to brood; by implication, to be relaxed:
KJV--flutter, move, shake.
Matthew 23:37
37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
This is the not so missing link to Shiloh, (slav-shlav-quail, shalav, shalah, shalom).
keypurr
Well-known member
He did, I never said he didn't.
keypurr
Well-known member
Dear friend, I will always speak to you. You do not have to agree with me to be my friend.
You do not seem to understand my post. I preach that God created a spirit to send to us. The express image of the Father, Christ, not Jesus. Christ is not God, he is a created FORM of God. And he is a spirit like his God.
Since God created all things through his express image, a spirit, it had to be Christ that moved across the face of the waters.
I do not believe that God came as his son. God SENT his son, Christ did not really want to come.
The Father is not the son, the son is not the Father. God did not come to us, he sent his son Christ. Only Christ, the express image of the Father, came down from heaven to teach us about his God.
I do not see a God the Son friend, I see only one God, the Father.
Jesus is not God, however the Christ IN him is a form of God.
Peace
keypurr
Well-known member
Another excellent statement Keypurr. Young's Literal Bible reveals a secret concerning Shiloh, (the Dove) in the opening account from creation:
Genesis 1:2 YLT
2. the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
The word rendered "fluttering" in the above actually means "to brood" as well as to flutter, like a mother hen over her own brood of chicks, (again there is neither male nor female in Messiah).
Original Strong's Ref. #7363
Romanized rachaph
Pronounced raw-khaf'
a primitive root; to brood; by implication, to be relaxed:
KJV--flutter, move, shake.
Matthew 23:37
37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
This is the not so missing link to Shiloh, (slav-shlav-quail, shalav, shalah, shalom).
Thank you friend, I never considered Matt 23:37.
keypurr
Well-known member
Express Image in Heb 1:3 is considered a copy or clone of the Father if compared in a few translations.
Yes, it is eikon in that passage, so do you suppose that Paul, being a first century Jew and "Pharisee of Pharisees", would suddenly begin worshiping and teaching others to worship an image-eikon, (of any kind) just because he saw a vision of Messiah? It seems to me that simply by the fact that Paul employs this word eikon for Messiah reveals that he worshiped the Father alone, (in Messiah, that is, he worshiped the Father in, through, and according to the Testimony of Yeshua the Master-Teacher). I have no idea what you believe so I am not being accusatory but simply asking.
Hi Keypurr,
You and I have come so close at times agreeing on so many things. I think the catch is your idea of The Christ vs. Jesus. ???
For me, Christ, is not a name ... it is more of a term that is just another way to identify that a Savior ... a Messiah ... a Promised ONE is going to come/came into the world.
When "the Christ" arrived, he was given a human name - Jesus.
Jesus is the Messiah - the Christ.
Now, who was the Christ that was promised to come being a Messiah?
You say he was created ... I say that "The Christ" was described in John 1. HE was the WORD of God, who was God, and who was simultaneously with God.
Really, you can't get much more ONE with God than that. If you ARE HIM and NOT APART from HIM ... that makes you equal.
So how can the Christ be God and yet identified as a unique entity from the Father?
My answer: The key is the use of the image, which, BTW, God did create. The way in which the in visible ONE God used his image makes the difference!
The invisible God came into the world (an Immanuel) and became known as the Father. God chose a name for himself whenever he appeared as the Immanuel. It is The LORD, the LORD God. Exodus 34.
Then the God came into the world again (Emmanuel) and became known as the begotten Son. God chose a name for himself when ever he appeared as the Emmanuel. It is Jesus, the Lord Jesus.
It was appropriated to call Jesus Master (a reference that could be used for one with supreme authority) and Lord (the name of God when he appeared in the world with his image).
In fact Jesus told his followers that they were speaking correctly about him ... then he scolded them for calling him these things but not obeying him. I think that would have been frustrating, but people do the same sorts of things today. We call Jesus our Lord and then don't think we need to do what he said.
Jesus, who was the Promised ONE/Christ was God spiritually as stated in John 3:34-35. Breakdown:
1.) For he (the Christ named Jesus) whom (the Spiritual) God hath sent (into the world)
2.) ... (Lord Jesus) speaketh the (exact) words of God (because he was the WORD of God, who was God and was with God who had come into this world)
3.) ...for God (who is the ONE Spiritual creator) giveth not THE SPIRIT by measure unto HIM the Christ who was identified as our Lord Jesus
IOW, the Spiritual God withheld none of his spirit from Jesus, who was the Christ.
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things (Divine Spiritual things) into his hand.
IOW, inwardly as the Lord Jesus, you can't get any more equal to the Spiritual God than this!
Our Lord Jesus, who was the promised Christ, bore in flesh the image belonging to God and, therefore, could be called by the name God had given to his image - Lord.
Philippians 4:21-23 Breakdown of key points:
21 Salute every saint in Christ Jesus...
23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all...
Colossians 1:12-17
12 Giving thanks unto the Father(who is God seen by men as the LORD), which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
13 Who hath delivered us form the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (The promised Christ, who was the WORD, who was God and with God, who was identified as our Lord Jesus.)
14 (The promised Messiah/Christ/Lord Jesus) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sin
15 (The promised Messiah/Christ/Lord Jesus the Savior) who is the image of the invisible God,
IOW, Lord Jesus was seen with the lordly image that belongs to the ONE Spiritual God.
... who is the image of the invisible God, (the image being) the firstborn of every creature.
You see, God created his own image before he gave any other created being a form of their own! The image is not God ... but represents God when comes as Emmanuel.
16 For By HIM (God, his WORD - later arriving as Lord Jesus the Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven ... earth ... visible and invisible... all things were created by him (God the WORD) and for HIM (God the WORD).
17 And HE is before all things, and by HIM all things consist.
Plug in this antecedent for the pronouns HE and HIM.
(God eternal who created things by HIS WORD and appeared unto men as LORD GOD Imannuel in times past and who came into the world proclaiming HIS OWN WORD through Lord Jesus the promised Christ and Savior)
Isaiah 43:11
I(the one spiritual God), even I am the LORD (God who appeared as LORD Immanuel); beside ME there is no Savior!
All these things tell us that God came as the Christ and was identified by the name of Jesus who was rightly called Master and Lord ... who was proclaimed to be Emmanuel (God among men) ... who told us that HE and the FATHER are ONE (the same one).
Jesus who proclaimed - when you have SEEM ME your HAVE SEEN the FATHER.
Of whom was said that he was the WORD and only spokes the words of God ... he had all of God's spirit in him ... and even bore the image that God created for his personal use.
I just don't know how anything can be said to more equal than the Father and the Son.
keypurr
Well-known member
Friend, we see things in such a different light. No one is as great as the Father. Jesus told you that his Father is greater than all. Yet you post that the Father and Son are equal. That is not true. Christ is the express image of his Father, that proves that he is a creature as told in Col 1:15, Heb 1:3. The creator is greater than the one created. Christ is the servant of his God, not equal to him.
You thing God came to hang on the cross. No God did not come to do that, he sent his son to do that. As I told you in my last post, the Father is not the son and the Son is not the Father. You seem to have a problem with that.
Christ is a powerful spirit, it was given the fullness of God. Phil 2 tells us that it is a form of God. Form of God is not the same as God himself, Christ is "a" god. Christ has a God so he is not equal to God. Jesus was not born as the Christ, he was born as the savour. He became the Christ when he was anointed with Christ. That is when Jesus got his special powers. Acts 10:38.
You and I must continue to disagree friend, but I will always see you as a sincere lover of God who is still seeking truth. Like myself.
It is the image belonging to the invisible God that is the "creature" mentioned in Col. 1.
Jesus bore the created image of God and it was seen by men and formed of flesh.
The Messiah/Christ was said to be the WORD of God, who was God, and who was with God.
To my thinking this means: The WORD was never apart from God nor was he a separate spiritual entity ... The WORD was God.
Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 43:11 by being God ... who appeared with the image of God named LORD ... and was the promised savior.
I (the one spiritual God), even I, am the LORD (God appearing with his created image named LORD); beside ME (as God and LORD) there is no Savior.
Jesus fulfilled all of these things.
keypurr
Well-known member
I do not see it that way Ps82. The express image is not God but a created form of God. It is a spirit being that was given the fullness of the Father. Jesus is the body God provided to hold this spirit.
I believe that the WORD mentioned in John 1 is the spirit that was IN Jesus. I see the express image was the Logos that became flesh. Notice that I do not see Jesus as the WORD. Jesus was born flesh, Christ became flesh.
God always was. He was alone until he created his express image, for God created everything through this image. Jesus was born into the world that was made through Christ.
Philippians 2:5-6 KJV -:first:
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
I'm startin' to really like you, bro. :salute:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
If'n it aint robbery, it must be free.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Can you say logos = logic?