What is the express image of God?

[RBBI]

Good thing you and your unbelief weren't around in Elisha's day.


2Ki 4:32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed.

2Ki 4:33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.

2Ki 4:34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.

2Ki 4:35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

2Ki 4:36 And he called Gehazi, and said, Call this Shunammite. So he called her. And when she was come in unto him, he said, Take up thy son.

2Ki 4:37 Then she went in, and fell at his feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out.

AND.....

Isaiah 25: 19 Thy dead shall live, my dead bodies shall arise, awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust, for thy dew is as the dew of light, and the earth shall bring to life the shades; and the second:

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence

 

[daqq]

Of course not! There is absolutely no evidence of someone who believed in Yeshua and did not die. We all die whether we believe in him or not.

Delivered from what, for heaven's sake, from death? No one can be delivered from death. Eventually we will all die. That's a fact witnessed by all of us.

Have you read my reply to Freelight in the post just above? He said nothing different from any other Christian intoxicated with Christian pre-conceived notions which only contradict the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.

Jeremiah 31:26-34 KJV
26. Upon this I awaked, and beheld; my sleep was sweet unto me.
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [Hebrews 8:8]
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [Hebrews 8:9]
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [Hebrews 8:10]
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. [Hebrews 8:11-12]

If you wish to physically die for your own iniquities, with seed of beast in the walls of your house, then that is your choice to physically die in your sins with seed of beast in the ramparts of your little city. However, Messiah shows me a better way: die to self, and cut off those evil beasts of the flesh; walk according to the Spirit of the Testimony of Yeshua, as Paul likewise teaches. Mortify your own "members" which are upon your land: mortify the deeds of the body, and wait in hope for that great day when Messiah shall appear. But first you have need of patience which has great reward; and to do the will of Elohim before you will ever recieve the Promise, (Hebrews 10:35-36 KJV, 1 Thessalonians 4:2-4 KJV).

 

[RBBI]

If you wish to physically die for your own iniquities, with seed of beast in the walls of your house, then that is your choice to physically die in your sins with seed of beast in the ramparts of your little city. However, Messiah shows me a better way: die to self, and cut off those evil beasts of the flesh; walk according to the Spirit of the Testimony of Yeshua, as Paul likewise teaches. Mortify your own "members" which are upon your land: mortify the deeds of the body, and wait in hope for that great day when Messiah shall appear. But first you have need of patience which has great reward; and to do the will of Elohim before you will ever recieve the Promise, (Hebrews 10:35-36 KJV, 1 Thessalonians 4:2-4 KJV).

AMEN and AMEN.....a man's enemies are those of his own HOUSEhold. Peace

 

[daqq]

AMEN and AMEN.....a man's enemies are those of his own HOUSEhold. Peace

Yes, and that quote is actually from Micah 7:5-6

Matthew 10:34-36 KJV
34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a machaira-sword, [sword of spiritual warfare, Acts 12:2, Rev 6:4].
35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law [Micah 7:6].
36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household [Micah 7:6].

Micah 7:5-6 KJV
5. Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6. For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.

And Micah 7:5-6 is from Deut 13 by the Testimony of Yeshua Spirit of Torah:

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 KJV
6. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7. Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8. Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9. But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

It is internal, (Balal-vs-Baal) "wife of your bosom" or "friend who is like your own soul".

 

[freelight]

Everlasting life............

Everlasting life............

~*~*~

Just for reference, my original post Ben is responding to is here

1 - No, they didn't. They were Jews just like Jesus whose Faith was Judaism which through the Tanach states that once dead we will never return from the grave. Read II Sam. 12:23; 14:14, Isa. 26:14; Job 7:9; and Job 10:21.

I provided a scriptural quote to prove my case in my previous post linked above - (John 11:17-27) Martha in this account believed in a 'last day resurrection', which indicates the likelihood that some of her associates did also. Jesus DID NOT correct Martha, but goes on to say that He is the resurrection and the life, and that by receiving and believing in him, one can have eternal life NOW. I know you don't believe the NT account, but there you have it. The gospel of John is more gnostic and esoteric in nature, having the themes of 'God' being light, love, truth, spirit,....and that thru Jesus we can experientially know and communion with the living God, our Spirit-Father.

Granted, the writer of John's theology emphasizes a last day resurrection (John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54), but also the 'resurrection' or rebirth of the spirit, an inner transformation, a receiving of the life of God in the very present. "He who believes, has everlasting life".

2 - Neither Pharisees nor Essenes or any other Jewish groups believed in bodily resurrection. They were loyal Jews and as such, they would not contradict their own Scriptures whose quotes I have posted just above.

I disagree, since I see evidence supporting otherwise.

When Paul was brought before the Sanhedrin:

6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!” 7 As he said this, there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. 9 And there occurred a great uproar; and some of the scribes of the Pharisaic party stood up and began to argue heatedly, saying, “We find nothing wrong with this man; suppose a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?”

- Acts 23:8

See: Resurrection (JewishVirtualLibrary) - while the afterlife is not spoken of directly in the OT, the concept of resurrection is contained therein, and further recognized/accepted in some form within the development of Jewish ideology/theology. This would merit its own thread, on the different Jewish views on the subject.

Re: The Essenes,...you might recall I had a thread here titled ' "The Essenes, both ancient and modern philosophy and practice"...so know a little about them, but am ever still learning.

Flavius Josephus had this to say regarding the Essenes:

"They believe that their souls are immortal, but that their bodies are corruptible. They believe the soul is trapped in the body and is freed with death. They believe that there is a place 'across the ocean' where just souls gather, a place reserved for the immortal souls of the just. The souls of the wicked, however, are relegated to a dark pit, shaken by storms and full of unending chastisement."

In another account, Hippolytus writes:

"Particularly firm is their doctrine of Resurrection; they believe that the flesh will rise again and then be immortal like the soul, which, they say, when separated from the body, enters a place of fragrant air and radiant light, there to enjoy rest—a place called by the Greeks who heard [of this doctrine] the 'Isles of the Blest.'

Links:

- The Essenes (Jewish Encyclopedia)

- The Nazarenes of Mount Carmel

- The Essene Nazarean Way of Essenic Studies

3 - Please, quote the Scriptures for evidences for an afterlife and continuous consciousness because, what I have is that no one can live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23)

There are passages that indicate an 'afterlife' or 'resurrection' of some kind in the OT, - Plus I've already shared 2 links with evidence for 'continued consciousness after physical death'. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

4 - Jesus was a Jew and, the NT, supposedly to be about Jesus is rather against his Faith which was Judaism. No one can be delivered from death. People die every day; as children, young people and old. And no one receives eternal life because, according to Gen. 3:22,23, no one can live forever. Jesus himself died as evidence of the truth of the Scriptures.

See the gospel of John and other references thru-out the NT, about souls receiving eternal life, or deliverance from death by faith in the Lord Jesus.

5 - Every one, believing in Jesus or not, has died since Jesus lived and died 2000 years ago.

Yes, physically speaking. Can you provide concrete evidence that there is no after-life, resurrection or continued consciousness after death? - Can you prove that souls are not immortal, OR cannot put on immortality? I understand you reject the NT, but this does not discount the intuition and belief of man from ancient times and of many other cultures of his innate immortality or potential immortality.

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

-John 8:51

 

[daqq]

Re: The Essenes

Hebrews 12:18-23
18. For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest:
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moshe said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
22. But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the Living Elohim, the heavenly Yerushalaim, and to an innumerable company of angels:
23. To the general assembly and congregation of the firstborn [sons] having been written in the heavens, and to Elohim the Judge of all, and to the spirits of upright ones having been perfected:

Certainly sounds like Essene theology to me . . .

~*~*~

Just for reference, my original post Ben is responding to is here



I provided a scriptural quote to prove my case in my previous post linked above - (John 11:17-27) Martha in this account believed in a 'last day resurrection', which indicates the likelihood that some of her associates did also. Jesus DID NOT correct Martha, but goes on to say that He is the resurrection and the life, and that by receiving and believing in him, one can have eternal life NOW. I know you don't believe the NT account, but there you have it. The gospel of John is more gnostic and esoteric in nature, having the themes of 'God' being light, love, truth, spirit,....and that thru Jesus we can experientially know and communion with the living God, our Spirit-Father.

Granted, the writer of John's theology emphasizes a last day resurrection (John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54), but also the 'resurrection' or rebirth of the spirit, an inner transformation, a receiving of the life of God in the very present. "He who believes, has everlasting life".

I disagree, since I see evidence supporting otherwise.

When Paul was brought before the Sanhedrin:

See: Resurrection (JewishVirtualLibrary) - while the afterlife is not spoken of directly in the OT, the concept of resurrection is contained therein, and further recognized/accepted in some form within the development of Jewish ideology/theology. This would merit its own thread, on the different Jewish views on the subject.

Re: The Essenes,...you might recall I had a thread here titled ' "The Essenes, both ancient and modern philosophy and practice"...so know a little about them, but am ever still learning.

Flavius Josephus had this to say regarding the Essenes:

"They believe that their souls are immortal, but that their bodies are corruptible. They believe the soul is trapped in the body and is freed with death. They believe that there is a place 'across the ocean' where just souls gather, a place reserved for the immortal souls of the just. The souls of the wicked, however, are relegated to a dark pit, shaken by storms and full of unending chastisement."

In another account, Hippolytus writes:

"Particularly firm is their doctrine of Resurrection; they believe that the flesh will rise again and then be immortal like the soul, which, they say, when separated from the body, enters a place of fragrant air and radiant light, there to enjoy rest—a place called by the Greeks who heard [of this doctrine] the 'Isles of the Blest.'

Links:

- The Essenes (Jewish Encyclopedia)

- The Nazarenes of Mount Carmel

- The Essene Nazarean Way of Essenic Studies


There are passages that indicate an 'afterlife' or 'resurrection' of some kind in the OT, - Plus I've already shared 2 links with evidence for 'continued consciousness after physical death'. That's just the tip of the iceberg.


See the gospel of John and other references thru-out the NT, about souls receiving eternal life, or deliverance from death by faith in the Lord Jesus.


Yes, physically speaking. Can you provide concrete evidence that there is no after-life, resurrection or continued consciousness after death? - Can you prove that souls are not immortal, OR cannot put on immortality? I understand you reject the NT, but this does not discount the intuition and belief of man from ancient times and of many other cultures of his innate immortality or potential immortality.

"If Moshe and the Prophets not they hear: neither would they be convinced if someone arose from the dead."

Exodus 3:1-6
1. Now Moshe kept the flock of Yithro, his father in law, Priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mount of ha-Elohim, Horeb.
2. And the Malak-Angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3. And Moshe said, I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4. And when YHWH saw that he turned aside to see, Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moshe, Moshe! And he said, Here am I.
5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off your shoes from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy ground.
6. Moreover he said, I am Elohey of your father, Elohey Abraham, Elohey Yitschaq, and Elohey Yakob. And Moshe hid his face because he feared to look toward ha-Elohim.


But Matthew and Mark quote Exo 3:6 while Luke quotes Exo 3:15, (YHWH Elohim).

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Hebrews 12:18-23
18. For you are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest:
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moshe said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
22. But you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the Living Elohim, the heavenly Yerushalaim, and to an innumerable company of angels:
23. To the general assembly and congregation of the firstborn [sons] having been written in the heavens, and to Elohim the Judge of all, and to the spirits of upright ones having been perfected:

Certainly sounds like Essene theology to me . . .




"If Moshe and the Prophets not they hear: neither would they be convinced if someone arose from the dead."

Exodus 3:1-6
1. Now Moshe kept the flock of Yithro, his father in law, Priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mount of ha-Elohim, Horeb.
2. And the Malak-Angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3. And Moshe said, I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4. And when YHWH saw that he turned aside to see, Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moshe, Moshe! And he said, Here am I.
5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off your shoes from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy ground.
6. Moreover he said, I am Elohey of your father, Elohey Abraham, Elohey Yitschaq, and Elohey Yakob. And Moshe hid his face because he feared to look toward ha-Elohim.


But Matthew and Mark quote Exo 3:6 while Luke quotes Exo 3:15, (YHWH Elohim).

Yes.....

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Oh yeah, not to forget his son.

 

[daqq]

Yes.....

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Oh yeah, not to forget his son.

Was just discussing that recently elsewhere.

Isaiah 45:3 Transliterated Unaccented
3. Wnatatiy lka 'owtsrowt choshek uwmaTmuney mictariym, lma`an teda` kiy- 'niy YHWH ha-Qowre' bshimka 'Elohey Yisra'el.

Isaiah 45:1-5
1. Thus says YHWH to His Mashiyach, to Koresh, [LXX - "Kuros" which is the root for Kurios] whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut:
2. I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, [hidden from the foundation of the world - Matthew 13:35] that you may know that I am YHWH, Who calls you by your name: 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. For the sake of Yaakob My servant, and Yisrael My chosen-elect, I have even called you by your name: I have surnamed you, ["Elohey Yisrael"] though you have not known Me!
5. I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside Me: I gird you, though you have not known Me:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4531697&postcount=8

Exodus 4:22
22. And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says YHWH, Yisrael is My Son, My Firstborn!

And in addition the Septuagint version of Exodus 4:22 reads Prototokos.