ECT What are the works of the Law?

[Jacob]

I think that is where a lot of people are getting confused. It's not law in general, it's a specific law.

You are or are not saying which law.

Do you mean a law as in there are many laws?

Or do you mean a law such as God's Law (being) the Law of Moses?

 

[turbosixx]

You are or are not saying which law.

Do you mean a law as in there are many laws?

Or do you mean a law such as God's Law (being) the Law of Moses?

I would suggest reading the context to make sure what I'm telling you is true.

Form the context it is the law of Moses.
What Paul is dealing with is the Christians,who once were Jews, were having trouble leaving the law of Moses behind. So Paul uses several arguments to show that salvation is only thru Christ and not the law. The law had no provision for the removal of sin, which is the problem all men face.

Later in the chapter he says:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The law that came 430 years after the promise made to Abraham was the Mosaical law given at mount Sinai.

 

[turbosixx]

You are or are not saying which law.

Do you mean a law as in there are many laws?

Or do you mean a law such as God's Law (being) the Law of Moses?

Chapter 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman....24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai....26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.....28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Chapter 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

 

[Jacob]

I would suggest reading the context to make sure what I'm telling you is true.

Form the context it is the law of Moses.
What Paul is dealing with is the Christians,who once were Jews, were having trouble leaving the law of Moses behind. So Paul uses several arguments to show that salvation is only thru Christ and not the law. The law had no provision for the removal of sin, which is the problem all men face.

Later in the chapter he says:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The law that came 430 years after the promise made to Abraham was the Mosaical law given at mount Sinai.

It is God's Law. Salvation is not by the Law. Salvation is by God through Jesus Christ His Son who died for you for the forgiveness of your sins. Christians are under grace.

Galatians 3:22 NASB - But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Romans 3:9 NASB - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Romans 6:14 NASB - For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15 NASB - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Romans 7:12 NASB - So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 7:13 NASB - Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Read Romans 8:1-4 NASB, Romans 8:7 NASB.

1 Corinthians 9:21 NASB - to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

1 Corinthians 9:21 NKJV - to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;

 

[turbosixx]

It is God's Law. Salvation is not by the Law. Salvation is by God through Jesus Christ His Son who died for you for the forgiveness of your sins. Christians are under grace.

Galatians 3:22 NASB - But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Romans 3:9 NASB - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Romans 6:14 NASB - For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15 NASB - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Romans 7:12 NASB - So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 7:13 NASB - Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Read Romans 8:1-4 NASB, Romans 8:7 NASB.

1 Corinthians 9:21 NASB - to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

1 Corinthians 9:21 NKJV - to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;

Which law came 430 years later?
Gal. 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

 

[Jacob]

Which law came 430 years later?
Gal. 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Abraham is in the book of Genesis while Moses 430 years later came after the book of Genesis. The covenant being spoken of appears to be that which was with Abraham, while the Law being spoken of is the Law given by God through the prophet Moses to the people of Israel. Is it the Ten Commandments (the Ten Commandments were written by God, not Moses) or is it more than that (to include that or not)? The first five books of the Bible are often called the Law of Moses. This is either true or it is not. It may be true in a different way than as I once thought. That is, Genesis was written either at the time of Moses (because God's name is revealed to Moses and the people of Israel as recorded in Exodus 6:3 NASB, and God's name IS found in the book of Genesis which records events prior to Moses) or following (at least his death must have been written (in Deuteronomy) following his death. There was something Moses wrote at God's command in addition to God writing the Ten Words on tablets of stone. The Law of Moses, or the Torah, can be referring to the first five books of the Bible, which some Christians call the Pentateuch. The Ten Commandments may be spoken of as the Law of Moses, I think I am just getting technical and seeing how people might see it. Obviously Moses delivered them to the people.

 

[turbosixx]

Abraham is in the book of Genesis while Moses 430 years later came after the book of Genesis. The covenant being spoken of appears to be that which was with Abraham, while the Law being spoken of is the Law given by God through the prophet Moses to the people of Israel. Is it the Ten Commandments (the Ten Commandments were written by God, not Moses) or is it more than that (to include that or not)? The first five books of the Bible are often called the Law of Moses. This is either true or it is not. It may be true in a different way than as I once thought. That is, Genesis was written either at the time of Moses (because God's name is revealed to Moses and the people of Israel as recorded in Exodus 6:3 NASB, and God's name IS found in the book of Genesis which records events prior to Moses) or following (at least his death must have been written (in Deuteronomy) following his death. There was something Moses wrote at God's command in addition to God writing the Ten Words on tablets of stone. The Law of Moses, or the Torah, can be referring to the first five books of the Bible, which some Christians call the Pentateuch.

Ok, so we've narrowed it down to the time of Moses. Let's look at the next chapter.

22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman....24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar....26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother

What covenant came from Mount Sinai?

 

[Jacob]

Ok, so we've narrowed it down to the time of Moses. Let's look at the next chapter.

22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman....24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar....26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother

What covenant came from Mount Sinai?

This is allegorically speaking.

 

[turbosixx]

Abraham is in the book of Genesis while Moses 430 years later came after the book of Genesis. The covenant being spoken of appears to be that which was with Abraham, while the Law being spoken of is the Law given by God through the prophet Moses to the people of Israel. Is it the Ten Commandments (the Ten Commandments were written by God, not Moses) or is it more than that (to include that or not)? The first five books of the Bible are often called the Law of Moses. This is either true or it is not. It may be true in a different way than as I once thought. That is, Genesis was written either at the time of Moses (because God's name is revealed to Moses and the people of Israel as recorded in Exodus 6:3 NASB, and God's name IS found in the book of Genesis which records events prior to Moses) or following (at least his death must have been written (in Deuteronomy) following his death. There was something Moses wrote at God's command in addition to God writing the Ten Words on tablets of stone. The Law of Moses, or the Torah, can be referring to the first five books of the Bible, which some Christians call the Pentateuch. The Ten Commandments may be spoken of as the Law of Moses, I think I am just getting technical and seeing how people might see it. Obviously Moses delivered them to the people.

Moses gave them the 10 commandments but that was a kind of index or table of contents. The rest of the law laid out all kinds of things for the people to follow. What I'm saying is, this is what Paul is speaking of when he says "of the law". They had all these rules but if one followed them to the T, they were still lost because it had no provision for the removal of sin.

3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[turbosixx]

This is allegorically speaking.

Yes, Hagar represents the Mosaical law and Sarah the new covenant. Ishmael born in bondage and Isaac born free.

 

[Jacob]

Moses gave them the 10 commandments but that was a kind of index or table of contents. The rest of the law laid out all kinds of things for the people to follow. What I'm saying is, this is what Paul is speaking of when he says "of the law". They had all these rules but if one followed them to the T, they were still lost because it had no provision for the removal of sin.

3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

God wrote:

Deuteronomy 10:2 NASB - 'I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered, and you shall put them in the ark.'

Deuteronomy 10:3 NASB - "So I made an ark of acacia wood and cut out two tablets of stone like the former ones, and went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hand.

Deuteronomy 10:4 NASB - "He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.

Deuteronomy 10:5 NASB - "Then I turned and came down from the mountain and put the tablets in the ark which I had made; and there they are, as the LORD commanded me."

Moses wrote:

Exodus 24:3 NASB - Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, "All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!"

Exodus 24:4 NASB - Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:9 NASB - So Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.

Deuteronomy 31:24 NASB - It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete,

Deuteronomy 31:25 NASB - that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,

Deuteronomy 31:26 NASB - "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

Mark 12:19 NASB - "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A MAN'S BROTHER DIES and leaves behind a wife AND LEAVES NO CHILD, HIS BROTHER SHOULD MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER.

Luke 20:28 NASB - and they questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that IF A MAN'S BROTHER DIES, having a wife, AND HE IS CHILDLESS, HIS BROTHER SHOULD MARRY THE WIFE AND RAISE UP CHILDREN TO HIS BROTHER.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, Hagar represents the Mosaical law and Sarah the new covenant. Ishmael born in bondage

I'm not sure what translation you are reading.

and Isaac born free.

Galatians 4:22 NASB - For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

Galatians 4:23 NASB - But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Galatians 4:24 NASB - This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Galatians 4:25 NASB - Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

Galatians 4:26 NASB - But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

Galatians 4:27 NASB - For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."

Galatians 4:28 NASB - And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Galatians 4:29 NASB - But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

Galatians 4:30 NASB - But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

Galatians 4:31 NASB - So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

 

[turbosixx]

I'm not sure what translation you are reading.

Galatians 4:22 NASB - For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

Galatians 4:23 NASB - But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.

Galatians 4:24 NASB - This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

Galatians 4:25 NASB - Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

Galatians 4:26 NASB - But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

Galatians 4:27 NASB - For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."

Galatians 4:28 NASB - And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Galatians 4:29 NASB - But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

Galatians 4:30 NASB - But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

Galatians 4:31 NASB - So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

I read primarily the NASB, NIV and KJV.

Yes, cast out the bondwoman (Mosaical law).

Gal.5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

He is telling them do not go back to the old law.

In Rom. 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul is clearly telling them not to go back to the old law because in Christ they have been freed from it because the old law could not remove sin. Heb. 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

 

[Jacob]

I read primarily the NASB, NIV and KJV.

Yes, cast out the bondwoman (Mosaical law).

Gal.5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

He is telling them do not go back to the old law.

In Rom. 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul is clearly telling them not to go back to the old law because in Christ they have been freed from it because the old law could not remove sin. Heb. 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

I actually believe he was writing to Gentile believers. Is this important for you or would you object to this statement?

 

[turbosixx]

I actually believe he was writing to Gentile believers. Is this important for you or would you object to this statement?

No objection at all, I understand it to be correct. Paul addressed both groups often at the same time. I understand the problem Paul is dealing with is Jewish Christians wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised so Paul then describes being bound by the law and circumcision verses free in Christ.

5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

If you think about it, that is the only law they have know for 1,500 years up to this point.

 

[Jacob]

No objection at all, I understand it to be correct. Paul addressed both groups often at the same time. I understand the problem Paul is dealing with is Jewish Christians wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised so Paul then describes being bound by the law and circumcision verses free in Christ.

5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

If you think about it, that is the only law they have know for 1,500 years up to this point.

I was speaking of Galatians, but am I wrong? Because how could they be subject again if they were Gentiles?

To me Romans may have been a mixed audience (Jew and Gentile)?

 

[turbosixx]

I was speaking of Galatians, but am I wrong? Because how could they be subject again if they were Gentiles?

To me Romans may have been a mixed audience (Jew and Gentile)?

Your right, but remember who is trying to convince the Gentiles to be circumcised. People will say Paul was to the Gentiles only, but he preached to any who would listen and I would think most groups were mixed.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had traveled through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

 

[Jacob]

Your right, but remember who is trying to convince the Gentiles to be circumcised. People will say Paul was to the Gentiles only, but he preached to any who would listen and I would think most groups were mixed.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had traveled through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Can this be spoken of as true for the Galatians?

Paul was ministering in Gentile lands.

 

[OCTOBER23]

Untillectual,

Turbosix gave you some DEEP Scriptures to think about like this one.

3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just like He did upon us at the beginning.
16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who am I, that I could stand in God’s way?”

18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying,

“Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

 

[Jacob]

15 “And as I began to speak, athe Holy Spirit fell upon them just bas He did upon us at the beginning.
16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘aJohn baptized with water, but you will be baptized 1with the Holy Spirit.’
17 “Therefore if aGod gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, bwho was I that I could 1stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they 1quieted down and aglorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the brepentance that leads to life.”

Yes, this was with Peter and before Paul.