Theology Club: Total Depravity

intojoy · Dec 4, 2013

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
We don't know who the elect and non-elect are. And even if we did, following Jesus' lead on the matter is best, e.g. love thy neighbor, etc.

Let me answer for you. If the non elect are enemies, what is our responsibility to them?
Love.

Saved.One.by.Grace · Dec 4, 2013

intojoy said:
Let me answer for you. If the non elect are enemies, what is our responsibility to them?
Love.

Jesus said love your enemies. But did He show love to the Sadducees and Pharisees? Yes, by speaking the truth to them. Paul was a Pharisee. We don't know who the elect and non-elect are. We are to treat all with love, but never, ever compromise the truth. You would be doing a disservice to the Word.

intojoy · Dec 4, 2013

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
Jesus said love your enemies. But did He show love to the Sadducees and Pharisees? Yes, by speaking the truth to them. Paul was a Pharisee. We don't know who the elect and non-elect are. We are to treat all with love, but never, ever compromise the truth. You would be doing a disservice to the Word.

Great. Instead of answering a simple question you with a yes, you falsely accuse me of dishonoring God and agreeing with the deeds of darkness.

What's wrong with your doctrine that you did that to me. I never said I would go along with any evil, agree with evil or tolerate evil.

My question is, if God does not love the non elect (an error by Calvin), then why should any one who is a hyper Calvinist love a non elect unbeliever either?

During the 18th century anyone who frequented the play houses in England to watch Shakespeare's plays and others were deemed irretrievably lost by Calvinists. Once it was proven that those who drank and sinned in contradistinction with the church goers they were prove to be non elect. Back then with the absence of the licentiousness of our generation, the lines of distinction between elect and non elect were very distinct. No elect person would watch Saturday Night Live or listen to Beyoncé or the Beatles as elect people of today do. Furthermore Calvin would send his ministers into the homes of Christians to be certain that everyone was living godly lives.

Pretty pathetic biblically speaking.

mmstroud · Dec 4, 2013

intojoy said:
Great. Instead of answering a simple question you with a yes, you falsely accuse me of dishonoring God and agreeing with the deeds of darkness.

What's wrong with your doctrine that you did that to me. I never said I would go along with any evil, agree with evil or tolerate evil.

:think: I think you misunderstood. You were not accused of going along with evil...

My question is, if God does not love the non elect (an error by Calvin), then why should any one who is a hyper Calvinist love a non elect unbeliever either?

I think the answer SOBG gave was clear. Do you know who is elect and who is not? We preach the Gospel promiscuously because we don't know. That's the whole point. Your question can't be answered except in the hypothetical.

During the 18th century anyone who frequented the play houses in England to watch Shakespeare's plays and others were deemed irretrievably lost by Calvinists. Once it was proven that those who drank and sinned in contradistinction with the church goers they were prove to be non elect. Back then with the absence of the licentiousness of our generation, the lines of distinction between elect and non elect were very distinct. No elect person would watch Saturday Night Live or listen to Beyoncé or the Beatles as elect people of today do. Furthermore Calvin would send his ministers into the homes of Christians to be certain that everyone was living godly lives.

Pretty pathetic biblically speaking.

If what you're saying is true (I don't doubt your statement, just don't have the facts about it), and I say this as kindly as possible - so what? Calvinist doctrines have nothing to do with behavior.

Totton Linnet · Dec 5, 2013

Nang said:
"Inability" does not do it for me, because it denotes a lack of power, but falls short of fully describing the corruption and spiritual rot that brings about God's sentence of death.

Cornelius shows that utter depravity is not true. Nor could there be stages of depravity, some who were more noble [as the Bereans] and those described [always a favourite of mine] "lewd fellows of the baser sort"

I am sure that when God completely withdraws from a person or people depravity will be utter....but God doesn't or rarely entirely leaves man. Indeed we are the salt which prevents utter corruption.

intojoy · Dec 5, 2013

mmstroud said:
:think: I think you misunderstood. You were not accused of going along with evil...

I think the answer SOBG gave was clear. Do you know who is elect and who is not? We preach the Gospel promiscuously because we don't know. That's the whole point. Your question can't be answered except in the hypothetical.

If what you're saying is true (I don't doubt your statement, just don't have the facts about it), and I say this as kindly as possible - so what? Calvinist doctrines have nothing to do with behavior.

Question: do we have to agape non elect people?

Answer: yes, because we are told to love our enemies

Simple question - non theologian answer

Quit failin' it's gettin' old

mmstroud · Dec 5, 2013

intojoy said:
Question: do we have to agape non elect people?

Answer: yes, because we are told to love our enemies

Simple question - non theologian answer

Quit failin' it's gettin' old

Maybe I don't understand the point you were trying to make with your question in the first place. Could you tell me plainly so I don't insult you by not answering the question you're actually asking? Please don't just ask the question again. Tell me the point you are trying to make.

Saved.One.by.Grace · Dec 5, 2013

intojoy said:
Question: do we have to agape non elect people?

Answer: yes, because we are told to love our enemies

Simple question - non theologian answer

Quit failin' it's gettin' old

It is not a simple question, it is a trick question. I know you've had a tough (to put it mildly) history. We've all been brought to Christ through different circumstances. My history is unique too. You're trying to make a point against Calvinism. Make it and move on and stop playing these silly games.

Ask Mr. Religion · Dec 5, 2013

[FONT=&quot]This sort of topic is usually the result of the meaning of love. In Romans 9:13, we read that God loved Jacob but hates Esau, so clearly there is a kind of love of God that is not equally shared by all persons. We should also remember that the emotions of “love” and “hate” as we experience them, overwhelming us and inflaming beyond reason, are not experienced as such by God. I also love my wife in a very different manner than I love my neighbor, so we must assume degrees of love. The intimacy of my love for my wife is akin to the intimacy of God’s love for His people, which is often spoken of with the “know”, “knew” verbs used when speaking of marital relations, as in “Adam knew Eve”.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Satan is our enemy and no one would think we should be praying for or loving the devil, whose consignment in eternity has been revealed to us. In fact, we should hate the devil with a perfect hatred. (For more, see John 8:44; Acts 13:10; Ephesians 4:27; Hebrews 2:14; James 4:7; 1 John 3:10; Revelation 12:12; Revelation 20:10.)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We do not know what God knows. God knows who is elect and who is not. The fact that in the general benevolence of God means the same rain that falls on the gardens of the reprobate and the elect will only serve to mock the reprobate come the Judgment. This general benevolence of God, e.g., rain, the sun, is a favor—not a saving favor—of God that is unmerited to its recipients. Indeed, fallen mankind does not deserve even the sun in the sky.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We are commanded to love those that persecute us, resting confident that the God who is will set everything right in the fullness of time. Our Lord commands we love our enemies (Luke 6:35). Why? Because God’s character is such that He is kind to the unthankful and evil (Luke 6:35). (Here “kindness”, e.g., the unmerited favor discussed above, is a form of love, but again, not the same love that would be God’s saving love.) That we are to love our enemies requires us to know our enemies. Who is our enemy? Our enemy is a world of humanity that are bonded slaves to sin. Thus we are to pray for the mercy of God might be shown to all in hopes that God will regenerate those unknown by us, restoring the image of man’s original creation, and making these persons our brothers and sisters.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When we explore the love of God, who better to look to than the express image of God. Jesus Christ (John 1:14). Was not our Lord full of compassion—a form of love we express for the suffering (Matthew 15:2)? What of the rich young man in Mark 10:21? He refused to become a disciple of our Lord, yet Jesus loved the rich young man. Was this love the same as our Lord’s love for his believing disciples? I think not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Given the above, does God love all persons in the same way and to the same degree? No.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]AMR[/FONT]
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intojoy · Dec 5, 2013

Compassion charity etc, that's love.

Saved.One.by.Grace · Dec 7, 2013

Ask Mr. Religion said:
[FONT=&quot]This sort of topic is usually the result of the meaning of love. In Romans 9:13, we read that God loved Jacob but hates Esau, so clearly there is a kind of love of God that is not equally shared by all persons. We should also remember that the emotions of “love” and “hate” as we experience them, overwhelming us and inflaming beyond reason, are not experienced as such by God. I also love my wife in a very different manner than I love my neighbor, so we must assume degrees of love. The intimacy of my love for my wife is akin to the intimacy of God’s love for His people, which is often spoken of with the “know”, “knew” verbs used when speaking of marital relations, as in “Adam knew Eve”.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Satan is our enemy and no one would think we should be praying for or loving the devil, whose consignment in eternity has been revealed to us. In fact, we should hate the devil with a perfect hatred. (For more, see John 8:44; Acts 13:10; Ephesians 4:27; Hebrews 2:14; James 4:7; 1 John 3:10; Revelation 12:12; Revelation 20:10.)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We do not know what God knows. God knows who is elect and who is not. The fact that in the general benevolence of God means the same rain that falls on the gardens of the reprobate and the elect will only serve to mock the reprobate come the Judgment. This general benevolence of God, e.g., rain, the sun, is a favor—not a saving favor—of God that is unmerited to its recipients. Indeed, fallen mankind does not deserve even the sun in the sky.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]We are commanded to love those that persecute us, resting confident that the God who is will set everything right in the fullness of time. Our Lord commands we love our enemies (Luke 6:35). Why? Because God’s character is such that He is kind to the unthankful and evil (Luke 6:35). (Here “kindness”, e.g., the unmerited favor discussed above, is a form of love, but again, not the same love that would be God’s saving love.) That we are to love our enemies requires us to know our enemies. Who is our enemy? Our enemy is a world of humanity that are bonded slaves to sin. Thus we are to pray for the mercy of God might be shown to all in hopes that God will regenerate those unknown by us, restoring the image of man’s original creation, and making these persons our brothers and sisters.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When we explore the love of God, who better to look to than the express image of God. Jesus Christ (John 1:14). Was not our Lord full of compassion—a form of love we express for the suffering (Matthew 15:2)? What of the rich young man in Mark 10:21? He refused to become a disciple of our Lord, yet Jesus loved the rich young man. Was this love the same as our Lord’s love for his believing disciples? I think not.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Given the above, does God love all persons in the same way and to the same degree? No.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]AMR[/FONT]

Well said.

Saved.One.by.Grace · Dec 7, 2013

To read more on the biblical doctrine of Total Depravity, the following website provides ample biblical verses in support. It attempts to answer many of the questions brought up in this thread.

Read more: http://www.traviscarden.com/total-depravity-verse-list

Ask Mr. Religion · Dec 7, 2013

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
To read more on the biblical doctrine of Total Depravity, the following website provides ample biblical verses in support. It attempts to answer many of the questions brought up in this thread.

Read more: http://www.traviscarden.com/total-depravity-verse-list

A keeper! Thanks.

AMR

musterion · Feb 2, 2014

Can the natural man comprehend the gospel or come to saving knowledge of God on his own?

Click to expand...

Let's find out.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned

Click to expand...

The primary context of the section of 1 Cor 2 is revelation, not illumination. This is seen from the opening where Paul says he came to them "declaring to you the mystery of God..." That body of doctrine has been revealed "to us" (v. 10)[to all believers] but not directly to our minds - it came through the instrumentality of Paul.

It is true that "the natural man" cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to them; but does that mean he cannot fathom them, or simply prefers not to? That point may be debated but there is one revelation of God that is beyond debate: the Gospel itself, which is targeted specifically to the ungodly, unregenerate dead-in-sin hearer, who - according to Calvinism - can't hear it. Yet he is expected to believe it or be condemned.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - our gospel is veiled... to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Click to expand...

Note carefully whose minds are blinded: unbelievers. Paul allows that IF the Gospel is hidden, it has been hidden by Satain (not by God!) from those who've already heard and rejected it. This aligns perfectly with those who in the end will be send a strong delusion as judgment from God because they will have already refused to receive a love of the Truth.

1 Corinthians 1:18,21-24 - For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles

Click to expand...

This does not prove the Calvinistic tenet that the unsaved cannot understand - much less cannot hear - the Gospel. It proves only exactly what it plainly says: the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who love sin. It does not mean they can't understand it - it means they don't want it.

Deuteronomy 29:2-4 - And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear."

Click to expand...

And what do the very next few verses say?

I led you 40 years in the wilderness; your clothes and the sandals on your feet did not wear out...

How did Israel react to God that 40 years? Thanklessly whining, complaining, murmuring against Him and against Moses. They didn't "get" all that God had done for them out of Egypt because they were faithless and didn't WANT to.
Continuing...

6 you did not eat bread or drink wine or beer—so that you might know that I am Yahweh your God. 7 When you reached this place, Sihon king of Heshbon and Og king of Bashan came out against us in battle, but we defeated them. 8 We took their land and gave it as an inheritance to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and half the tribe of Manasseh. 9 Therefore, observe the words of this covenant and follow them, so that you will succeed in everything you do.

There's a big problem here. We go from a Calvinist prooftexter saying v. 4 shows that Israel could not see nor hear unto that very day because God didn't want them to, to v. 9 where God commands them ALL to obey His words, else they will see the horrors listed in the previous chapter.

So which is it?

Are they unable to even see and hear - much less obey - unless God enables them to? Or are they responsible for their own faithless choices all the way through? Are we to assume (if we accept the premise of the prooftext) that somewhere between v. 4 and v. 9 God has granted all of Israel the ability to not only see and hear but to obey the covenant He was making with them?
Which is it?

And then there's this from the end of ch. 30:



11 “This command that I give you today is certainly not too difficult or beyond your reach. 12 It is not in heaven so that you have to ask, ‘Who will go up to heaven, get it for us, and proclaim it to us so that we may follow it?’ 13 And it is not across the sea so that you have to ask, ‘Who will cross the sea, get it for us, and proclaim it to us so that we may follow it?’ 14 But the message is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may follow it. 15 See, today I have set before you life and prosperity, death and adversity. 16 For I am commanding you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commands, statutes, and ordinances, so that you may live and multiply, and the Lord your God may bless you in the land you are entering to possess. 17But if your heart turns away and you do not listen and you are led astray to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I tell you today that you will certainly perish and will not live long in the land you are entering to possess across the Jordan. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 love the Lord your God, obey Him, and remain faithful to Him. For He is your life, and He will prolong your life in the land the Lord swore to give to your fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

Click to expand...



Huh...wouldja look at that. Looks a lot like God was giving Israel a choice between good and bad, as if they could UNDERSTAND HIS WORDS. Even looks like He's telling them they have the ability to do what's right, if they choose to.

Huh. *scratches head* I just can't figure this one out. It's almost as if He thinks they can hear, understand and choose to obey Him.

Matthew 11:27 - "no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him."

Click to expand...

Yes...and to whom does Christ choose to reveal the Father? WHOSOEVER IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD WHO BELIEVES ON HIM (John 3:16), without exception or distinction.

Saved.One.by.Grace · Feb 5, 2014

musterion said:
And then there's this from the end of ch. 30:

Huh...wouldja look at that. Looks a lot like God was giving Israel a choice between good and bad, as if they could UNDERSTAND HIS WORDS. Even looks like He's telling them they have the ability to do what's right, if they choose to.

Huh. *scratches head* I just can't figure this one out. It's almost as if He thinks they can hear, understand and choose to obey Him.


Yes...and to whom does Christ choose to reveal the Father? WHOSOEVER IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD WHO BELIEVES ON HIM (John 3:16), without exception or distinction.

So you believe God was giving Israel a choice and didn't know what they would choose. Believing that would be denying God's sovereignty. Is that what you believe? You, me and Israel would not be able to believe if it wasn't for God's grace.

musterion · Feb 6, 2014

Saved.One.by.Grace said:
So you believe God was giving Israel a choice and didn't know what they would choose. Believing that would be denying God's sovereignty. Is that what you believe? You, me and Israel would not be able to believe if it wasn't for God's grace.

Nice beating you laid on that straw man. I never said I did or did not believe the yellow part, but that didn't stop you from drawing a conclusion from something I never said. Try again.

intojoy · Feb 6, 2014

The real honest hard truth is that everyone who dies goes to hell. Unless they accepted Christ. That means the tribesman who never heard the gospel and infants that died before hearing the gospel.

Why is this true?

Posted from the TOL App!

Totton Linnet · Feb 6, 2014

intojoy said:
The real honest hard truth is that everyone who dies goes to hell. Unless they accepted Christ. That means the tribesman who never heard the gospel and infants that died before hearing the gospel.

Why is this true?

Posted from the TOL App!

Your making stuff up

"It is appointed for man once to die and after that the judgement"

Saved.One.by.Grace · Feb 6, 2014

musterion said:
Nice beating you laid on that straw man. I never said I did or did not believe the yellow part, but that didn't stop you from drawing a conclusion from something I never said. Try again.

Well if I misunderstood, I apologize. Maybe you could take a moment and better explain what you meant because it wasn't clear to me. Are you saying Israel had a choice or not?

intojoy · Feb 6, 2014

Total Depravity

Totton Linnet said:
Your making stuff up

"It is appointed for man once to die and after that the judgement"

Not Lazarus

He died twice!

Posted from the TOL App!

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