Theology Club: Total Depravity

[Dialogos]

It is true that "the natural man" cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to them; but does that mean he cannot fathom them, or simply prefers not to?

It means they can't. No theological fancy dancing needed.

"...he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1Co 2:14 ESV)
​

The natural man is not able to understand the things of the Spirit.

That point may be debated but there is one revelation of God that is beyond debate: the Gospel itself, which is targeted specifically to the ungodly, unregenerate dead-in-sin hearer, who - according to Calvinism - can't hear it.

You mean according to the bible... can't hear it apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[intojoy]

It means they can't. No theological fancy dancing needed.

"...he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1Co 2:14 ESV)
​

The natural man is not able to understand the things of the Spirit.



You mean according to the bible... can't hear it apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

They can understand the gospel message but not the doctrines of the bible like the trinity, mysteries, covenants etc.

They can understand the gospel as muster says. A Mormon who thinks that salvation is by works can understand us when we tell him that Christ paid it all and its free. A Muslim can understand what is meant by grace salvation even tho his faith requires severe obedience for salvation.

Total depravity in the case of the Mormon and Muslim means that they reject the notion that salvation can be received for free thru Christ. It does not however mean that their rejection is due to a lack of comprehension.

Atheist professors of evolutionist prejudice also can understand completely what is meant by salvation by grace alone thru faith alone in the substitutionary death burial and resurrection of Christ plus nothing.
Their problem is that they cannot believe, they have been passed over. Maybe.

We do not judge who is elect because God ordained our prayers and works thru our spiritual gifts such as evangelism as part of the means to the end results of the saving of His elect. Therefore we forge ahead and work the works of the evangelists. And we do not lose hope knowing that out there in the cosmos, God's elect are responding to His divine effectual calling.


Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Charles Spurgeon on Calvinism — Total Depravity

But Adam’s sin did not affect only himself. His fallen nature spread to the entire human race, and every part of every person is fatally plagued by spiritual death.

That makes no sense since the Bible reveals that we die spiritually due to our own sin:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

Before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. Therefore, people emerge from the womb spiritually alive, and not spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin.

 

[intojoy]

That makes no sense since the Bible reveals that we die spiritually due to our own sin:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

Before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. Therefore, people emerge from the womb spiritually alive, and not spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin.

Those verses do not teach spiritual life in the unregenerate

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Those verses do not teach spiritual life in the unregenerate

Then what kind of "death" is being referred to?

 

[intojoy]

Then what kind of "death" is being referred to?

Paul or James'?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul or James'?

Start with James.

 

[intojoy]

Start with James.

James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings. (James 1:1 NASB)

James is writing to saved people.
They have been regenerated.
The temptation spoken of that brings forth death is in reference to broken fellowship with The Lord, not the death of the Second Death for unregenerate, spiritually dead lost people.

James is not writin' to them.

 

[musterion]

It means they can't. No theological fancy dancing needed.

"...he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1Co 2:14 ESV)
​

The natural man is not able to understand the things of the Spirit.

Revelation - not illumination - is Paul's point there. Your premise fails on that point.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings. (James 1:1 NASB)

James is writing to saved people.

Yes, but here he is not addressing saved people but instead he is speaking of "every man":

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

 

[intojoy]

Yes, but here he is not addressing saved people but instead he is speaking of "every man":

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

Ah why not? Chief MannyBottles?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ah why not? Chief MannyBottles?

Because "every man" can not mean just some men.

 

[intojoy]

Because "every man" can not mean just some men.

And?

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

That makes no sense since the Bible reveals that we die spiritually due to our own sin:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).
​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).
​

Before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. Therefore, people emerge from the womb spiritually alive, and not spiritually dead as a result of Adam's sin.

<DIR>1 Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. [NASB]

Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- [NASB]
</DIR>Jerry, you really need to read your Bible, all of it.

 

[intojoy]

Total Depravity

Deleted

 

[intojoy]

And?

Because "every man" can not mean just some men.

Ah why not? Chief MannyBottles?

Yes, but here he is not addressing saved people but instead he is speaking of "every man":

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

That also does not demand that only one group is spoken of, James calls the believer 's failing in a temptation a death the same way that an unbeliever is dead to God spiritually. The believer cannot die spiritually since he is sealed unto the day of redemption but his relationship is severed from fellowshipping with God when he sins. John, speaking to the believers gives the remedy for fellowship forgiveness and restoration by confession.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That also does not demand that only one group is spoken of, James calls the believer 's failing in a temptation a death the same way that an unbeliever is dead to God spiritually.

Again, the words "every man"can not be referring just to the saved.

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

The believer cannot die spiritually since he is sealed unto the day of redemption but his relationship is severed from fellowshipping with God when he sins. John, speaking to the believers gives the remedy for fellowship forgiveness and restoration by confession.

The verse is about "every man" and not about just believers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

<DIR>1 Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. [NASB]

Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- [NASB]
</DIR>Jerry, you really need to read your Bible, all of it.

Romans 5:12 proves my point:

"death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Spiritual death spread to all men BECAUSE ALL SINNED.

 

[intojoy]

Again, the words "every man"can not be referring just to the saved.

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

The verse is about "every man" and not about just believers.

Exactly! And the believers were once unsaved! Right? So it can be taken your way. It can be taken mine. Just like eternal security has to be accepted by the mass of evidence.

Every man is tempted every man sins and that sin brings forth death. That's how I see it.

 

[intojoy]

Lmk when you're ready for Paul