toldailytopic: Water baptism: what is it's place today?

[Axman]

I find nowhere in Scripture where Spirit baptism superseded water baptism. To me calling what happens when we receive the Holy Spirit as an indwelling presence a baptism is a figurative use of the word baptism. While it is a real, literal event, it is not literally a baptism. Only water baptism is literally a baptism. Therefore, since Paul states in Ephesians 4:5 that there is only one baptism I contend that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as an indwelling presence when we are baptized in water. In effect, water baptism IS the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

If I have faith in His blood for remission I am able to declare His righteousness. Why is that not good enough? Why should I get water baptized for remission?

 

[greatdivide46]

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

If I have faith in His blood for remission I am able to declare His righteousness. Why is that not good enough? Why should I get water baptized for remission?

It looks like the verse you quoted is saying the whoever "God hath set forth to be a propitiation" is the one who is doing the declaring here, not us.

 

[Axman]

It looks like the verse you quoted is saying the whoever "God hath set forth to be a propitiation" is the one who is doing the declaring here, not us.

What are you saying? Please clarify.

 

[greatdivide46]

What are you saying? Please clarify.

I'm just saying that in Romans 3:25 Jesus is declaring His own righteousness. You seemed to be saying that people are the ones declaring His righteousness. And while that may be true, I don't see it in Romans 3:25. Nevertheless, there is no better way to declare the righteousness of Christ that to be obedient to His command to be baptized.

 

[Axman]

I'm just saying that in Romans 3:25 Jesus is declaring His own righteousness. You seemed to be saying that people are the ones declaring His righteousness. And while that may be true, I don't see it in Romans 3:25. Nevertheless, there is no better way to declare the righteousness of Christ that to be obedient to His command to be baptized.

Yes, we can declare His righteousness by faith. God will only accept perfection and we receive it in Christ. Water baptism was a Jewish ritual of cleansing long before John the Baptist, it was a ritual under the law.

Christ fulfilled the law in a perfect way so that He could give the gift of perfection to us when we are placed into His body. We have a more perfect cleansing, a circumcision without hands that separates us from our flesh and makes us a new creature in Christ. All things have become new in that Spiritual operations have replaced operations of the flesh.

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

After the death of Christ these Spiritual operations were in force but it was through progressive revelations that they were fully revealed by the apostles..

Perfection is in Christ, we have to receive His righteousness to be accepted by God.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[serpentdove]

Baptism

The Believer's Baptism by Adrienne Rogers (paraphrased notes):

Baptism is not necessary to salvation but it is necessary to obedience; obedience is necessary to joy, growth and fruitfulness. We dare not deemphasize what the Bible emphasizes (Ac 8). Jesus began his public ministry by being baptized and he concluded his ministry by commanding baptism.

Baptism is not about denominational preference. It is about about what the Bible says

The biblical method is immersion (v38). In Mark 1:9, Jesus was in Jordon (the river) literal "in to" Jordon. Jesus took a 60-mile trip to be baptized by John. There was a lot of water there. In John 3:23, Jesus baptized and John was also baptizing because there was much water there. It takes a lot of water. There can be no mistaking about it.

Baptize means "immerse". It was an ordinary word. It is an untranslated word. In 1611 when translating from Greek to English, men came upon the word baptism and they had a problem. The king did not practice biblical baptism. He had learned from the traditions of men not the Bible. They said if we translate it, it will be embarrassing to the king and if we translate it any other way, any one who knows Greek will laugh us out of the church. So, they transliterated it. It is a Greek word jammed into English. They did not have courage to say what it is. It means "to immerse".
The method is wrapped up in the meaning. You cannot change the method without the meaning. What did God do for us when he saved us? When we get saved we die to sin, die to the old way. God forbid we continue to live sinful lives (Ro 6:1). We were baptized into his death. We are buried with him by baptism into death. We were buried with him by baptism into death v4, the old person we used to be died. The old Adrienne died. He died 2000 years ago when Jesus died. He carried my sins to the cross. He suffered and died in agony for me.

When I have faith in him, I died with him. The old man (Adrienne) was crucified with him (v6); henceforth, we shall not serve sin. The day I was baptized was my funeral. We are buried with him (v4). If I were to died physically, they’d put me in the earth. It would be a disgrace to leave me out in an open field.

The only mourner at my baptism was the devil. He hated to see me die. My sin went into the grave of God's forgetfulness. Baptism is a picture of your burial. We walk in newness of life (v4). Jesus did not stay in that grave. He came out of that grave.

Baptism is not by submersion (you’d die), but immersion (you have a new life). Christians are not just nice people, they are new creatures, risen to walk with the Lord Jesus.

I have a new life, I had a past burial, I have a present new life (v5). In the future, we will be in the likeness of his resurrection. One day we will die but the grave will not hold us. We will be in the likeness of his resurrection. God will raise us up. We need not fear death.
A caterpillar said to a butterfly, “You'll never get me up in one of those things.” It’s foolish to be afraid of death. We will be in the likeness of his resurrection. That’s what Baptism is--his death, burial and resurrection for us—our death, burial and resurrection in him.
If you were the devil, wouldn't you want to take that message out of the church? 1 Corinthians 15 is the gospel. It is the core of all that we do. We die with Christ. We are buried with Christ. We live with Christ

Baptism: proclaims your commitment to Jesus, it shows our conversion, and it is an act of obedience. Baptism is not a suggestion; it is a command (Mt 28:19-20) from our sovereign Lord in the first century.

 

[greatdivide46]

I agree pretty much with Adrienne Rogers, except for her first phrase. She starts out by saying baptism is not for salvation and then boldly states that when we are baptized we die to sin ("The day I was baptized was my funeral."). That sounds like salvation to me.

 

[greatdivide46]

ORIGINAL: Axman]

Water baptism was a Jewish ritual of cleansing long before John the Baptist, it was a ritual under the law.

Yes it was. However, there are a couple of differences between the Jewish ritual and what Jesus commanded us to do.

First, the Jewish ritual was self-administered. People baptized themselves. Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize other people. And he commanded them to do that as part and parcel of making disciples.

Second, the Jewish ritual did not result in the forgiveness of sins nor the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38).

 

[Axman]

Yes it was. However, there are a couple of differences between the Jewish ritual and what Jesus commanded us to do.

First, the Jewish ritual was self-administered. People baptized themselves. Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize other people. And he commanded them to do that as part and parcel of making disciples.

Second, the Jewish ritual did not result in the forgiveness of sins nor the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38).

Maimonides (1135-1204), a Jewish codifier of the Torah had this to say concerning converts to Judaism:

"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify ( make pure or free from sin) them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised and be baptized; and when the Temple shall be built, they are to bring a sacrifice...The gentile that is made a proselyte and the slave that is made free, behold he is like a child new born."

Gentiles of today who convert to Judaism must undergo baptism in a mikveh ritual. The purpose of this ceremonial immersion is believed to grant spiritual cleansing, as Maimonides stated in his codification of the laws of mikveh. Peter reflected this same belief when he required the Gentile Cornelius to be baptized.

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts 10:47 (KJV)

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35 (KJV)
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all Acts 10:36 (KJV)

Using water to cleanse is an ancient Jewish tradition. When John the Baptist came on the scene he preached a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4) as did Peter (Acts 2:38) at Pentecost when the nations were gathered together. The Jews saw nothing pagan or wrong in John’s demands that people repent and be cleansed in the Jordan River."Baptist" or “baptizer“, comes from the Greek verb baptidzo, which has the same meaning as the Hebrew root taval: to wash by dipping or plunging in water. John's message was in keeping with what all the other Jewish prophets proclaimed. He preached God's judgment, warning that Israel must repent and be water baptized because of the coming of the Messiah was at hand. The self-righteous may have disagreed but they had no problem with John's method of cleansing. If it had been anything other than their normal tradition the religious leaders would have had him stoned as a false prophet.
John baptized Jesus and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1 :29). Jesus was perfect and sinless, John’s baptism prepared Him as both Priest and Sacrifice for Israel. In the days Christ walked this earth the Mosaic law was still in effect, those who repented and were cleansed by John in the river still brought animal sacrifices to the Temple to receive God's forgiveness. But after Christ gave his life as an atonement for sin, removing the law (Col. 2:14), baptism became a Spiritual operation of God that places us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Is Adrienne Adrian's daughter?

 

[Lighthouse]

I find nowhere in Scripture where Spirit baptism superseded water baptism. To me calling what happens when we receive the Holy Spirit as an indwelling presence a baptism is a figurative use of the word baptism. While it is a real, literal event, it is not literally a baptism. Only water baptism is literally a baptism. Therefore, since Paul states in Ephesians 4:5 that there is only one baptism I contend that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as an indwelling presence when we are baptized in water. In effect, water baptism IS the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
-Matthew 3:11

John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
-Luke 3:16

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
-Ephesians 4:4-6

If there is only one baptism whose is it? John's or Jesus'?

 

[greatdivide46]

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
-Matthew 3:11

John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
-Luke 3:16

So when were you baptized with fire? Baptism with the Holy Spirit and baptism with fire are both figurative uses of the word baptism. The fact that John used baptism to identify these two events is incidental. However, it does not change the literal meaning of baptism to exclude water.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
-Ephesians 4:4-6

If there is only one baptism whose is it? John's or Jesus'?

There is only one baptism and it is the baptism that every convert in the book of Acts experienced -- baptism in water. But just like Jesus has a divine nature and a human nature, so our baptism has a spiritual aspect and a physical aspect. When we are physically baptized in water we spiritually receive from God the forgiveness of our sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (see Acts. 2:38). It is but one baptism.

 

[greatdivide46]

Axman,

Using water may be an ancient Jewish tradition, but all the baptisms in the book of acts were not the same as the one in Jewish tradition. They were the result of Jesus command to His disciples to make other disciples by baptizing them first and then teaching them all that He had commanded them. The baptism of Cornelius was the same as the baptism on the Day of Pentecost when 3,000 souls were added to the body of Christ. It was not some ancient Jewish ritual that added Gentiles to the church. Even Jews had to undergo this baptism.

 

[serpentdove]

I agree pretty much with Adrienne Rogers, except for her first phrase. She starts out by saying baptism is not for salvation and then boldly states that when we are baptized we die to sin ("The day I was baptized was my funeral."). That sounds like salvation to me.

Rogers stated that baptism is not necessary for salvation but it is necessary for obedience and obedience is necessary to joy, growth and fruitfulness in the Christian life. It is a symbol that we are not to minimize. He gave an example. If someone asked him to show them a picture of his wife and he pulled out a picture of a car or a dog, it would be odd. It does not represent his wife.

He gave another example of a man who went to the Smithsonian and saw Lady Bird Johnson viewing a wax figure of herself. A photographer came by and asked the First Lady to step aside because he intended on taking a picture of the wax figure!

Although baptism is a symbol, it is a symbol of something real. We identify with Christ as he identified with us in death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Lighthouse]

So when were you baptized with fire? Baptism with the Holy Spirit and baptism with fire are both figurative uses of the word baptism. The fact that John used baptism to identify these two events is incidental. However, it does not change the literal meaning of baptism to exclude water.

"baptize" means "to immerse." Water is not a necessary component to the definition of that word.

There is only one baptism and it is the baptism that every convert in the book of Acts experienced -- baptism in water. But just like Jesus has a divine nature and a human nature, so our baptism has a spiritual aspect and a physical aspect. When we are physically baptized in water we spiritually receive from God the forgiveness of our sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (see Acts. 2:38). It is but one baptism.

I was baptized into His death, burial and resurrection.

 

[greatdivide46]

"baptize" means "to immerse." Water is not a necessary component to the definition of that word.

You know, I've heard that before, but every time I go to a Greek-English lexicon and look up "baptizo" it always has the word "water" somewhere in the definition. I think I will go with the lexicon.

I was baptized into His death, burial and resurrection.

As was I!!

 

[Axman]

Axman,

Using water may be an ancient Jewish tradition, but all the baptisms in the book of acts were not the same as the one in Jewish tradition. They were the result of Jesus command to His disciples to make other disciples by baptizing them first and then teaching them all that He had commanded them. The baptism of Cornelius was the same as the baptism on the Day of Pentecost when 3,000 souls were added to the body of Christ. It was not some ancient Jewish ritual that added Gentiles to the church. Even Jews had to undergo this baptism.

Maimonides was a Jewish codifier of the law and the law was in force during the time of Jesus. Jesus was baptized under the law.
Are you under the law?

Those baptized at Pentecost had no problem with water baptism as it was under the law. There is no indication that it had changed as they knew it, under the law.

Those baptized at Pentecost were not added to the body of Christ!!!!
You need to prove that with scripture!

Sure the Jews were baptized at Pentecost, the ritual wasn't a one time deal, it was a purification ritual preformed on many occasions.

 

[Axman]

You know, I've heard that before, but every time I go to a Greek-English lexicon and look up "baptizo" it always has the word "water" somewhere in the definition. I think I will go with the lexicon.



As was I!!

It is strange that you base your faith on a definition in a lexicon, do you believe in double inspiration? Natural words were used to explain Spiritual operations, like curcumcision made without hands.

Mat 3:11 IG1473 indeedG3303 baptizeG907 youG5209 withG1722 waterG5204 untoG1519 repentance:G3341 butG1161 he that comethG2064 afterG3694 meG3450 isG2076 mightierG2478 than I,G3450 whoseG3739 shoesG5266 I amG1510 notG3756 worthyG2425 to bear:G941 heG846 shall baptizeG907 youG5209 withG1722 the HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 andG2532 with fire:G4442

In the above we have two baptisms and "baptize" with the Holy Ghost does not mean baptize with water.

 

[john w]

It is strange that you base your faith on a definition in a lexicon, do you believe in double inspiration? Natural words were used to explain Spiritual operations, like curcumcision made without hands.

Mat 3:11 IG1473 indeedG3303 baptizeG907 youG5209 withG1722 waterG5204 untoG1519 repentance:G3341 butG1161 he that comethG2064 afterG3694 meG3450 isG2076 mightierG2478 than I,G3450 whoseG3739 shoesG5266 I amG1510 notG3756 worthyG2425 to bear:G941 heG846 shall baptizeG907 youG5209 withG1722 the HolyG40 Ghost,G4151 andG2532 with fire:G4442

In the above we have two baptisms and "baptize" with the Holy Ghost does not mean baptize with water.

_
"does not mean baptize with water."-Axman

Correctamundo(STP):

"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;' "1 Cor. 10:2

No water-the Israelites passed through the Red Sea on dry ground-the Egyptians "went under the water":

"But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea." Ex. 14:16

"And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided." Ex. 14:21

"And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left." Ex. 14:22

"But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left." Ex. 14:29

"For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea." Ex. 15:19

"And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea." Ex. 15:8

Congealed=thickened-frozen

"...the waters" , which "were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their leftwaters", were frozen!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

"...the waters" , which "were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their leftwaters", were frozen!

Maybe "the church" will start dumping their members into tanks of ice instead of the baptistry?