toldailytopic: Water baptism: what is it's place today?

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greatdivide46

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Under the Baptist's ministry water baptism was required for remission.
Show me the water in Rom 6:3-4.
Water is inherent in the meaning of the word "baptize." Unless, of course, the word is being used figuratively as in "baptism of the Holy Spirit." I'm not saying that the event described by the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is not a real event, but the phrase itself is figurative way of describing a literal event.
 

The Graphite

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Water is inherent in the meaning of the word "baptize." Unless, of course, the word is being used figuratively as in "baptism of the Holy Spirit." I'm not saying that the event described by the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is not a real event, but the phrase itself is figurative way of describing a literal event.
The figurative meaning is far more important thant the literal. It does mean to "immerse" (a term I personally favor over baptism, which has lost a lot of meaning), but it means figuratively to immerse more than literally.

For example, the Israelites were "baptized into Moses," according to Paul. When? When they followed him through the Red Sea and were spared the water. They were not repentant of their paganism at that time, however they trusted Moses, so Moses acted as a temporary covering for them. They trusted Moses, and Moses trusted the Lord, so the Lord provided rescue and other provisions for Moses, and they were "immersed" into Moses (thus they were identified with Moses) and so they received that rescue and those blessings temporarily by being identified with (and covered by) Moses.

I would argue that identification is also a significant connotation in the meaning of baptism.

Jesus said He would immerse the Circumcision believers in the Holy Spirit.

For us in the Body of Christ, the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. Thus, we are identified with Christ, and He covers us, and He stands in our place, and His righteousness is imputed to us, etc.

There was baptism of repentance, baptism by fire, baptism in water...
 

greatdivide46

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ORIGINAL: The Graphite

Jesus said He would immerse the Circumcision believers in the Holy Spirit.

For us in the Body of Christ, the Holy Spirit immerses us into Christ. Thus, we are identified with Christ, and He covers us, and He stands in our place, and His righteousness is imputed to us, etc.

There was baptism of repentance, baptism by fire, baptism in water...
I agree. I would contend that all of the baptisms (immersions) mentioned in the above quote (with the exception of baptism by fire) occur at the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4:5 when we are baptized (immersed) in water.
 

Axman

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Did Paul baptize people or not?

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

It is clear that Paul was not sent to water baptize as the other apostles were commanded.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
 

Axman

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Water is inherent in the meaning of the word "baptize." Unless, of course, the word is being used figuratively as in "baptism of the Holy Spirit." I'm not saying that the event described by the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is not a real event, but the phrase itself is figurative way of describing a literal event.


Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. John 4:10

The "living water" is his spoken word and it is the gift of God which we must "drink". We receive this living water when we believe His word.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13

This baptism is not in water and it is the one baptism Eph 4:5.
We receive this baptism inwardly when we believe in Christ. Christ is the Spirit our living water who gives us eternal life.


That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27 (KJV)

God is not concerned about cleansing our fleshly bodies but our eternal souls. This process of cleansing (Spirit baptism) is when we receive circumcision without hands.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the “circumcision made without hands“, in “putting off the body of the sins of the flesh” by the circumcision of Christ: Col. 2:11

Water baptism of repentance and circumcision were operations of men by the hands of men under a old testament. Baptism by the Spirit and circumcision without hands are operations of God under a new testament.

The old testimony of sin remission began with John the Baptist.


Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

The Baptist spoke of what was to come.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Water baptism was to be superceded by Spirit baptism.

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5:31 (KJV)

There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. John 5:32 (KJV)

Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. John 5:33 (KJV)

But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. John 5:34 (KJV)

He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. John 5:35 (KJV)

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36 (KJV)

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37 (KJV)

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. John 5:38 (KJV)

We have a greater witness for sin remission and that word was first given to us by Paul.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paul was the first to reveal the new testament for sin remission that is why he was the only apostle that could say "Christ sent me not to baptize".
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
:doh:

1. Nobody (certainly not I) accused you of saying baptism is necessary for salvation.
2. Do not murder has never been invalid. Its validity is of singular unimportance to this discussion.
3. Who cares if you honour the sabbath or not? Of what possible use is that to the discussion?
You said "Christ also commanded these things". So I don't know what value they are to the discussion. YOU brought them in, I replied to what you said.

What point are you trying to make?
Christ says things we both hold to be universally true but you draw a distinction over baptism. On what basis do you pull out the command to baptize?

The same way everyone is always saved. By faith and through the grace of Jesus Christ. You are not talking about anything that is under debate. The fact is that the rules did change. Once upon a time God commanded that people fulfil the law in order to express their faith and be saved. He did that for a reason. Now He commands that we use our faith to commit to Jesus Christ. That's a rather dramatic change!
Are we still not obligated to observe much of the law? Certainly it is not the law that saves us but it isn't tossed away either. Funny that everyone in my area seems to put the ten commandments on their lawn as if they still have meaning. :think:

The Christians you are talking to can walk you through clear passages that rigorously describe this change down to very fine details.
No, there are no passages such that you describe. So far what has been posted is only passages taken out of context.

How about you show some integrity and, since you agree that something changed, show us the passages outlining that change. Or if you do not believe anything changed then admit that.
Something changed when Christ came, died and rose again but I don't see any change having anything to do with baptism occurring afterward.

No, I have read it. Perhaps you haven't understood that all men are always saved by faith through the grace of God. What changes is the means by which God rules that faith be expressed.
Ultimately there is still no real change in saving faith, the faith of the ancients looked forward to something unknown. We look back to what we know.

Nothing is important in the light of that which saves. Baptism is a total waste of time when it comes to salvation. You might as well thrown yourself in a vat of 3 day old noodles for all the saving power power of baptism. You might as well drown yourself in Coca Cola for all the good baptism will do to save a man. Baptism is utterly useless ... for the purposes of salvation. It might be a nice tradition and it might make certain people happy to see you follow their way of thinking, but the absence of baptism from a church is utterly meaningless to any spiritual status.
Its commanded by Christ and carried out by the apostles in Acts. Apparently its relatively important considering the recorded events. What you've just stated is your opinion. There's nothing in the Bible that reflects the kind of attitude you're expressing.

What's a eucharist? :idunno:
Take communion, break bread together, you know "Do this in remembrance of me". You don't believe in doing that either?
 

Stripe

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Christ says things we both hold to be universally true but you draw a distinction over baptism. On what basis do you pull out the command to baptize?

On the basis that the law is now of entirely no use for salvation. I am not the one separating laws. No law is useful when it comes to salvation. All God's laws point to Christ, but in attempting to use even the smallest of them in order to attain salvation puts you subject to the entire law.

If you're going to agree that the law is of no use to salvation then you have to agree that a church who does not practice baptism does nothing wrong.

If you agree with that then what point are you trying to make in this thread arguing for baptism?

Are we still not obligated to observe much of the law?

No.

Certainly it is not the law that saves us but it isn't tossed away either.

It is for those who are saved. The law is of no use to a man who is saved.

Funny that everyone in my area seems to put the ten commandments on their lawn as if they still have meaning. :think:
They do have meaning. They point to Christ.

No, there are no passages such that you describe. So far what has been posted is only passages taken out of context.

Feel free to show us the passages that show the law becoming of no effect.

Something changed when Christ came, died and rose again but I don't see any change having anything to do with baptism occurring afterward.
Something sure did change. And that change is outlined by Paul.

Its commanded by Christ and carried out by the apostles in Acts. Apparently its relatively important considering the recorded events.

So is circumcision.

Take communion, break bread together, you know "Do this in remembrance of me". You don't believe in doing that either?

Oh. Why do you call it that?

Sure, that's a nice tradition.
 

greatdivide46

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1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

It is clear that Paul was not sent to water baptize as the other apostles were commanded.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt. 28:19 (KJV)
You're right. Paul was not sent primarily to baptize people, but then neither were the apostles. Nevertheless, Paul did baptize people and so did the apostles. But Paul's primary mission was the preach the gospel. And the apostles primary mission was to teach people all that Jesus had commanded them. BTW it is interesting that you have misquoted Matt 28:19. (Or, maybe the version you have actually reads that way). The order of events is Go, make disciples, baptize, and then teach. Not Go, teach, and then baptize.
 

greatdivide46

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ORIGINAL: Axman

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. John 4:10

The "living water" is his spoken word and it is the gift of God which we must "drink". We receive this living water when we believe His word.
I disagree. I think the living water is actually the Holy Spirit. And we receive this living water when we believe His word and are baptized for the remission of sins. It is then that we are made to "drink" of the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate your lengthy post which starts off with the above quote. I'm not going to be able to address it all, though, due to time constraints. Sorry.
 

Axman

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greatdivide46;2252177]You're right. Paul was not sent primarily to baptize people, but then neither were the apostles. Nevertheless, Paul did baptize people and so did the apostles.

"Primarily" is not in the text, Paul said ...1 Cor. 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize. The apostles were commanded to baptize.



But Paul's primary mission was the preach the gospel. And the apostles primary mission was to teach people all that Jesus had commanded them. BTW it is interesting that you have misquoted Matt 28:19. (Or, maybe the version you have actually reads that way). The order of events is Go, make disciples, baptize, and then teach. Not Go, teach, and then baptize.

It's not a misquote..KJV. How can you make disciples without teaching?
 

Tiberius

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Water baptism: what is it's place today
Water Baptism. The word "BAPTIZO" was not translated from the Greek. It means "TO IMMERSE". When the King James Bible was completed, the king (King James I) happened not to be honoring God. Therefore, no translation so as not to upset him. The word was rather transliterated.

Jesus was baptized by immersion. If it's good enough for him. It's good enough for me. Neither sprinkle nor shower will save you. Baptism is an act of obedience by a born-again believer.
 

Axman

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greatdivide46;2252178]I disagree. I think the living water is actually the Holy Spirit. And we receive this living water when we believe His word and are baptized for the remission of sins. It is then that we are made to "drink" of the Holy Spirit.

We don't disagree!

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

words=spirit

I appreciate your lengthy post which starts off with the above quote. I'm not going to be able to address it all, though, due to time constraints. Sorry.

Get back to me when you get the time.
 

Lighthouse

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Water Baptism. The word "BAPTIZO" was not translated from the Greek. It means "TO IMMERSE". When the King James Bible was completed, the king (King James I) happened not to be honoring God. Therefore, no translation so as not to upset him. The word was rather transliterated.

Jesus was baptized by immersion. If it's good enough for him. It's good enough for me. Neither sprinkle nor shower will save you. Baptism is an act of obedience by a born-again believer.
The issue is whether or not we have to be baptized. Jesus was baptized before the cross. Now those who accept Him are baptized into His death, burial and resurrection.
 

The Graphite

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The issue is whether or not we have to be baptized. Jesus was baptized before the cross. Now those who accept Him are baptized into His death, burial and resurrection.
"Must spread rep around before giving it to Lightouse again."

What a beautiful point, dispensationally. Thank you for reminding me of that, Lighthouse. We are baptized into Christ and thereby identified with Him. His death is ours. His resurrection is ours. His righteousness is ours. His baptism is ours.
 

Lighthouse

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"Must spread rep around before giving it to Lightouse again."

What a beautiful point, dispensationally. Thank you for reminding me of that, Lighthouse. We are baptized into Christ and thereby identified with Him. His death is ours. His resurrection is ours. His righteousness is ours. His baptism is ours.
:guitar:
 

greatdivide46

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"Primarily" is not in the text, Paul said ...1 Cor. 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize. The apostles were commanded to baptize.
You're right. "Primarily" is not in the text. Nevertheless it is obvious from the text that Paul baptized some of those people, which leads me to believe that was not called to not baptize either.

It's not a misquote..KJV. How can you make disciples without teaching?
Oops..my mistake. I wonder why the modern translations translate the first "teach" as "make disciples" and leave the second "teaching" in verse 20 as "teaching." Could they be different words in the Greek?

No, you can't make disciples without teaching. And if that's true, then neither can you make disciples without baptizing them.
 

Axman

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You're right. "Primarily" is not in the text. Nevertheless it is obvious from the text that Paul baptized some of those people, which leads me to believe that was not called to not baptize either.

Oops..my mistake. I wonder why the modern translations translate the first "teach" as "make disciples" and leave the second "teaching" in verse 20 as "teaching." Could they be different words in the Greek?

No, you can't make disciples without teaching. And if that's true, then neither can you make disciples without baptizing them.


Spirit baptism superseded water baptism. We are baptized into his body and identified in Him. We receive His cloak of righteousness meaning He did the work for us. If one feels they need to add to His work then they are not identifying in Him.
 

greatdivide46

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Originally posted by Axman

Spirit baptism superseded water baptism. We are baptized into his body and identified in Him. We receive His cloak of righteousness meaning He did the work for us. If one feels they need to add to His work then they are not identifying in Him.
I find nowhere in Scripture where Spirit baptism superseded water baptism. To me calling what happens when we receive the Holy Spirit as an indwelling presence a baptism is a figurative use of the word baptism. While it is a real, literal event, it is not literally a baptism. Only water baptism is literally a baptism. Therefore, since Paul states in Ephesians 4:5 that there is only one baptism I contend that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit as an indwelling presence when we are baptized in water. In effect, water baptism IS the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
 
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